"The Cardinals"; if Ryan wished the band to be called JUST this...

[Paul Vick]

... do you think he needs to change his current attitude to level the plain out amongst the band members?

As it stands, its very much Ryan Adams' show, we all know this and so does he.

But he has been insistant in recent interviews that he wanted to release Easy Tiger under "The Cardinals" banner rather than "Ryan Adams" or "Ryan Adams and The Cardinals" which would suggest he sees himself and the band as equal a mindset he is obviously not carrying onto the stage.

But do you think the supposed name change which will occur post Lost Highway will change the live dynamic of the group?

Neal's comment that "he just plays guitar" and Graboff stating that "Ryan’s the boss." shows that they know their place, so would a name change be just and only that?

Maybe the pressure of the name and the focus being on him is one of the factors in his recent outbursts and tantrums? Maybe he'll be happier sitting back under and out of the spotlight as a "Cardinal" rather than as the "leader"?

Though we all know he'll ALWAYS be the focus, I just think if this band became "The Cardinals", Ryan's recent actions need to be curbed massivly to be 'fair' to the rest of the band as it'll be a collective name at steak.

[ferris wheel junkie]

oh please, what were they supposed to say?

[Paul Vick]

oh please, what were they supposed to say?

I'm not saying what they said is the only indicator of their status as band members, or how they view their position, but I think there should be a higher level of respect at least from Ryan on down to the rest of them. Especially as Ryan himself deems this current line-up the definative "Cardinals" and a true and proper band in itself.

Could you imagine being in what is supposed to be a band and your lead singer going on like this? I'd be really fucking embarassed, not only for said singer, but for myself as I also get tarnished and lumped in with his attitude.

By the way, I have seen Ryan Adams 3 times. Borderline, BBC4 and Koko. I have seen him happy, interactive and obviously in awe of his bandmates [Borderline], I've seen him professional and perfect in the way we all wish he would be night in and out [BBC4] and I've seen him pissy and cut a show short due to "crowd noise" [Koko], so I have a fairly nice rounded view of his live experience.

[Faded Rose]

Paul - I don't think you and I were at the same Koko show. Obviously our memories are different if we were.

Ryan can call the band just "The Cardinals" or whatever he likes but it will still be his band. I think the band needs him just as much as he needs them (probably more) and no I don't think he could ever be happy taking a back seat. I think he likes the group support thing as opposed to being solo but no more than that.

[ewok.online]

it'll be just like Whiskeytown.
everyone knew who was driving that bus.

[Faded Rose]

And the bus crashed - who survived other than the driver?

[ewok.online]

exactly.
i didnt mean "just like whiskeytown" in a positive light.
he has good ideas, its just making the ideas workable and feasable and practical and actually being able to take some criticism and outside input.
this is where it all seems to go downhill.

[Faded Rose]

exactly.
i didnt mean "just like whiskeytown" in a positive light.
he has good ideas, its just making the ideas workable and feasable and practical and actually being able to take some criticism and outside input.
this is where it all seems to go downhill.

But don't you think that in any band there is only room for one super-ego, one ideas man, one creative genius? Would you like to be the one to tell him to stop fucking around?

[ewok.online]

But don't you think that in any band there is only room for one super-ego, one ideas man, one creative genius? Would you like to be the one to tell him to stop fucking around?
i kind of agree.

but if you look at the history of a lot of "Important Rock Bands" where the band and their songs have a mythical kind of staus... there's always a push/pull between two members of the band.

Lennon/McCartney, Mick/Keith, Roger Waters/David Gilmour, Paul Westerberg/Bob Stinson of the Replacements.
the only band i can think of that had one maverick genious doing everything his way was The Who. Townshend is fucking nuts.

but my point is, he needs a conterpoint. someone to tell him "no."
i think Neal could be that guy.
unfortunately, he's hired on, not really "IN A BAND" as if they started it all together, so if Ryan got too fed up with him, he could just fire him.
because i have a feeling The Cardinals names aren't really on anything.
all the important shit says "Ryan Adams", probably, so in a legal sense, they're still "Just The Band."

which means, again, if he got too fed up, he can just cut them loose and not have to think twice about it.

[Faded Rose]

But Lennon and McCartney ended up disliking each other. Mick Jagger has always been a super-ego. I don't know about the others apart from Townshend and I agree with that.

Neal is not the man to tell Ryan "no". I don't think they have that kind of relationship. What Neal should do is keep his mouth shut after shows.

[ewok.online]

Neal is not the man to tell Ryan "no". I don't think they have that kind of relationship. What Neal should do is keep his mouth shut after shows.

yeah, that's true. i kind of shot that argument in the foot with the whole "they're not "IN A BAND"" sentiment.

now that i think about it, the guy to tell him to shut the fuck up and tell him how it is would probably be Brad. he's been with him the longest.

[Faded Rose]

Brad's long suffering. He's been spat on! :rolleyes


Let's bear in mind too that whatever else he is I don't think Ryan is stupid.

[ferris wheel junkie]

By the way, I have seen Ryan Adams 3 times. Borderline, BBC4 and Koko. I have seen him happy, interactive and obviously in awe of his bandmates [Borderline], I've seen him professional and perfect in the way we all wish he would be night in and out [BBC4] and I've seen him pissy and cut a show short due to "crowd noise" [Koko], so I have a fairly nice rounded view of his live experience.


i was at all those shows too. koko was the same length-ish as paris before it and manchester after it. bbc was for tv so it was a bit different. i thought they were all cool gigs.
you seem to have mainly seen the kind of quieter gigs. the cardinals can also rock. and i've seen them cover dio and billy ocean in the same set.
i've seen some pissy gigs too, but they usually preceded awesome ones (belfast followed by dublin , or birmingham followed by cambridge - cardinals 06). i don't mean that i'm an expert, but i've seen them play a lot of times so you can't really pull that card on me. :)

sometimes i hate work, most times i love it. it's probably no different for the cardinals. saying they're going to break up is a bit drastic. lets just leave it up to them, and if/when it happens then we can all cry about it. it's a bit silly to do that before it even happens.

[ferris wheel junkie]

Neal is not the man to tell Ryan "no". I don't think they have that kind of relationship. What Neal should do is keep his mouth shut after shows.

neal shouldn't be sociable with fans after shows? i don't know what his relationship with ryan is because i've mostly only seen them play onstage.
:\

[ewok.online]

Let's bear in mind too that whatever else he is I don't think Ryan is stupid.

agreed. he's crazy like a fox.


sometimes i hate work, most times i love it. it's probably no different for the cardinals. saying they're going to break up is a bit drastic. lets just leave it up to them, and if/when it happens then we can all cry about it. it's a bit silly to do that before it even happens.

also agreed.
i wasn't trying to give off the "OMG THE CARDZ ARE BREAKING UP" vibe, i was just riffing on the subject, and that's where my mind went.

i think they're still pretty solid. they put up with crazy hobo Ryan, i don't think a little ill-temperment every now again is going to ruin them.

[ferris wheel junkie]

i have no idea what will happen with them. if they become just "the cardinals" i don't think things will change very much. when i see them play i'm seeing "the cardinals" already. the jams and everything are very much a "band" gelling with eachother and communicating with eachother musically. when it works it's incredible. when it doesn't, they're good enough musicians, each of them, that it's usually a pretty good show anyway, at least musically.

anyway, whatever happens i've been grateful for my cardinals experiences, what a great band! :)

[ewok.online]

anyway, whatever happens i've been grateful for my cardinals experiences, what a great band! :)

i so wish there was a cheerleader smiley. :P

[Paul Vick]

Paul - I don't think you and I were at the same Koko show. Obviously our memories are different if we were.

Well I can't see how you can say it wasn't a lesser "Ryan Adams" than what you would hope to get. He cut a handful of songs from the set, didnt interact, for the exception of some mutterings and clearly didnt want to be there. A VERY different Ryan Adams to the previous night at the BBC4 recording, which is easily the best RA+TC show I've seen [all two of em :lol].

I do wish I went to the Shepards Bush shows I had tickets for last year but passed because my friend backed out on me and I didnt wanna go alone. :boohoo

Maybe I'm just hard to please. Granted the performance at KoKo was spot on, but the set length and lack of interaction left me, my two friends and pretty much everyone I saw on the way out feeling slightly let down. Especially as it wasn't exactly a cheap ticket... anyway... this isnt the discussion.

Ewok, I think you were right in the "he needs a conterpoint. someone to tell him "no."" point. But as you went on, Neal should/could be that guy but wont because he is just a hired hand. I think the people around him are obviously aware of the fragile man Mr. Adams is thus not being that counter-voice he might need. Even the genius needs a voice of reason to help keep their focus under control.

It's a shame because there is a great chemistry between the group that is clearly visable when they perform. It's quite an amazing thing to watch and witness, I havent seen many bands as tight as them in a long time, and I think it'd be even better if Ryan was able to take a little of the light off him and shine it on the rest to a level where they are equal.

But like has been said, this wont happen because it IS Ryan Adams' ship, he's the captain and what he says ultimatley goes I guess.

[Paul Vick]

And I'm not going at the "I think they're breaking up or will do under the pressure" angle... I'm simply coming at this from the "I wish there were no problems at any shows and all shows were long and left everyone happy" angle, and obviously Ryan is the part of the puzzle this hangs on most.

[ferris wheel junkie]

i so wish there was a cheerleader smiley. :P

i would totally be their cheerleader. :banana

i still think they have been the bestest band in the world. i see lots of bands too, but this is the best.

[Paul Vick]

i would totally be their cheerleader. :banana

i still think they have been the bestest band in the world. i see lots of bands too, but this is the best.

Considering I haven't been a fan for very long, and I too have seen a LOT of bands and still do... I agree with this statemant wholeheartedly.

[ewok.online]

the way they lock in when they get to that level* is astounding.

*The Plateau :rock:guitarsolo

[ferris wheel junkie]

exactly!
so they're allowed a few off nights. it sucks if that's the night you happen to see them, but i think it's worth the risk. some people don't, but the not great ones are getting fewer and fewer and the great ones already outnumber them by far.

[Starlite]

neal shouldn't be sociable with fans after shows? i don't know what his relationship with ryan is because i've mostly only seen them play onstage.
:\

I got the impression that Ryan and Neal were pretty good friends from the Borderline show. I'm not sure you can sing a song about somebody peeing, if you're not friends with them :lol

[ferris wheel junkie]

i just think it's a bit silly to presume that you know what people are like if you're only judging from what you see of them onstage, or read about them onstage.

i'm not really concerned about weather or not they're all BFF with eachother. i just like to see them all play.

starlite, you're right though! that was too funny. and when they did the rumble in cambridge rap, all of them. too funny. all the in-jokes that they seem to have, even when you don't get them, are super funny to watch.

[Faded Rose]

Shepherds Bush and Koko were totally different shows - totally different. Personally I loved them both in different ways. You have to look for the good in what you get not the bad. Quit the negative vibes!

I didn't mean that Neal shouldn't interact with fans after shows. I just think he should watch what he says. Comments like "I just play guitar" aren't particularly helpful after a bad show and if I was Ryan and one of my band members said that I'd be pretty pissed. It may be Ryan's fault if a show goes wrong but if the band are happy to take the credit when things go well you have to be prepared to take the face slaps as well.

And no I don't think this is going to break them up and like Ferris I've enjoyed and still am enjoying my Cardinals experiences.

[ferris wheel junkie]

ok, but if they've had a bad show and people are asking about why or what happened, and he obviously don't want to talk about it (as much for ryan's sake as his own) then i think that "i just play guitar" is fair enough. he can't exactly come out and say "no comment". to me it seems like his way of just brushing the question off more than a reflection of where he stands in the band.

[Faded Rose]

That's copping out...and he was talking to a reporter (or someone who talked to a reporter). I just think sometimes it's best to say nothing or " We had a bad night and we're sorry" would have done.

[sipowicz]

I just think sometimes it's best to say nothing or " We had a bad night and we're sorry" would have done.

I agree completely, but you will never hear that from Ryan.

[ferris wheel junkie]

i don't think he knew it was even a reporter.
according to the people on the boards, he was saying that to everyone.
i don't think he should have to say "we had a bad night" for ryan. if ryan wanted to, he could be the one to say that, since it was his problems during the gig, not neals. no one should have to apologise for ryan.
neal didn't even have to come out and speak to people at all. i think it's really cool that he even did.

[Faded Rose]

Ferris - we're just going to have to disagree on this one.

Neal didn't have to come out to speak to people and if he'd used his judgment this might have been one of those times when it would have been better not to. Maybe I'm prejudiced because I'm not a "touchy feely fan". I don't feel the need to connect with a band in any way other than through their music and their shows. Get too close and you often find your idols have feet of clay.

[ferris wheel junkie]

oh, i think it's not so much a problem for me because i idolise the music, not the people. to me they're all just guys when you're talking to them. they're demi-gods only when they're playing, and even then it's not all the time.

i think it's ok that they fuck it up sometimes. everyone does. i do.

[Faded Rose]

:)

[ewok.online]

he didnt really "come out".
my thing is i sit by the bus and if one of them walks by, i just go "good show" and give a thumbs up or whatever. i don't wanna bug them.

but then he got trapped by other people, and they wanted to know what happened. but he was nice enough to not try and escape too quickly.

i think "i just play guitar" was meant to mean "dont ask me about how Ryan keeps the office, i just work in the shop."
not "i just play guitar, so why should i give a fuck?"

dude got cornered. he had to say something.

[ferris wheel junkie]

exactly. thank you.

[Faded Rose]

So I'm in a minority of one - I don't care. It's my opinion. I think the whole band has to accept responsibility for a bad night.

[ewok.online]

So I'm in a minority of one - I don't care. It's my opinion. I think the whole band has to accept responsibility for a bad night.

they can't very well keep him on the stage if he wants to go.
that would make the show even worse if he stayed around in a bad mood.

[Faded Rose]

I've lost the will....

[ferris wheel junkie]

i don't really know. what do other bands do when they have a bad night?

i've been to some crap shows (ryan or anyone else) and i just cut my losses and go home. what else is there?

[ewok.online]

I've lost the will....

aww.
i'm not trying to beat you down.
:hug

[Faded Rose]

Jesus y'all have the tenacity of a bulldog.

Other bands probably do what Ryan obviously does - not give a fuck. Move on.

[burgerqueen]

So I'm in a minority of one - I don't care. It's my opinion. I think the whole band has to accept responsibility for a bad night.

No, I kinda agree with you. I like the point that if they're willing to take credit for the good then the bad should to a point fall with them too.

I understand Ryan is the one who wanted to leave & I know he's an ass like that sometimes. But good lord, I don't think it would hurt if the others grew some balls and said something to him from time to time. They're supposed to be friends, and Ryan keeps harping about wanting to be equals (although we all know he'll never give up that much control) then they should be able to say something too. If they're worried about being fired then that would show just how great of "friends" they really are.

[MarleyJayne]

Faded - Just want you to know I am with you on this one. When you are part of a group, you ARE the group. What you say and how you act reflects on the group. Stick together through good AND bad. No comments would be fine with me.

BTW - We should all be just enjoying RA and The Cardinals while we have them instead of worrying about what their future holds! Be thankful for the great shows and even greater thanks for the ones we think are bad. Because its like pizza. Even when it's bad, it's still pretty good!

[JackStark211]

WOW!!!

[stickie]

I have noticed a tendency among fans to blame Ryan if there is a bad show, but to praise the Cardinals as a whole for a fine performance.

Just an observation, but this might not be exactly fair to anyone involved.