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Feeds 03-27-2008 11:50 AM

"“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and doe
 
““Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and does not like altruism. Still, bad teet, brutal work ethic- total hotness. Heer visual descriptions of New York and her heroines (Dagny, Dominic) all leggy and pursed lipped. jesus H crocodiles. I wish she weren’t so harsh about altruism. I mean, every person not a Howard Roar or Hank Rearden isn’t an Ellworth Toohey archetype.
As For Sylvia Plath, there is a new book (or I think it’s new, Nellie McKaye was carting it round the other evenening) called “GIVING UP; the Final Days of Sylvia Plath” . It made me want it and also cringe. Maybe it will be followed up with the book “Somebody punch Ted Hughes for burning her final works” What a jerk. Put it in a lock-box you burnt english muffin. I hate him.
Anyway reading Plath is like taking apart stained glass. Each sentence is a pane, and you hold it round the edges for fear if you drop it, a piece of history shatters and is gone forever.
Both of them feminist icons (maybe)
and both of them I want to daydreams about being sweaty in crystal haystack with, even with Ayn Rand and her forever coffee breath.
Althoiugh I would always be thinking about Sylvia. Men are just like that.”

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Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 10:35 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Ayn Rand was an idiot, sorry. Sylvia Plath was an admirable poet though.

hildegoat 03-27-2008 10:38 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
How so on Ayn Rand, C?

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 10:41 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hildegoat (Post 389016)
How so on Ayn Rand, C?

I find her views on socialism as boogeyman, capitalism and particularly altruism to be pretty naive. At least they seemed that way to me in Atlas Shrugged. It's the only one of her books I've read.

hildegoat 03-27-2008 10:44 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
I've never read her stuff, just heard some general stuff on her views. I can agree with parts of it, but I'm all over the political spectrum.

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 10:50 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hildegoat (Post 389018)
I've never read her stuff, just heard some general stuff on her views. I can agree with parts of it, but I'm all over the political spectrum.

She's very right wing...you know, even socialised health care or welfare is the bane of society etc etc..

Her philosophy on altruism is what really annoys me though....she basically believes that individual selfishness is the highest moral ideal. To her, helping others (especially through any sort of government aid) is a weakness and just encourages people to become dependent. There are times this is true I guess, but she makes the mistake of assuming that the world and life treat everyone fairly and that everyone has the same opportunities. The reality is they simply don't. I'm a bit surprised RA is a fan.

hildegoat 03-27-2008 10:55 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Where I live is a very good example of people becoming dependent on gov't aid, so I can relate to her ideas.

I've really swung from left to right in the past couple of years, and I'm not sure if my environment is a major factor in it. On the other hand, I'm still young and impressionable, so a few more swings before I get older is probably inevitable.

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 11:01 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hildegoat (Post 389023)
Where I live is a very good example of people becoming dependent on gov't aid, so I can relate to her ideas.

I've really swung from left to right in the past couple of years, and I'm not sure if my environment is a major factor in it. On the other hand, I'm still young and impressionable, so a few more swings before I get older is probably inevitable.

There are times when I think our government gives handouts too easily as well, and I'm related to several people who I know for a fact could work but choose not too. But I also grew up in an area that was pretty poor and had the good fortune to end up somewhere that is pretty middleclass. And a lot of that was just luck and circumstance. So I also see how poverty is a cycle and that some people really need a hand from time to time to stay afloat.

foggy 03-27-2008 11:17 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydneyfan (Post 389014)
Ayn Rand was an idiot, sorry.

My feeling as well and I was surprised to see that Ryan admires her. I once knew someone who was quite heavily into her, which led me to read a couple of books by and about her. Her views drove me round the bend. I also read a book about her cult following once.. er.. crazy stuff.

ferris wheel junkie 03-27-2008 11:21 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
scary.

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 11:22 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foggy (Post 389039)
My feeling as well and I was surprised to see that Ryan admires her. I once knew someone who was quite heavily into her, which led me to read a couple of books by and about her. Her views drove me round the bend. I also read book about her cult following once.. er.. crazy stuff.

I don't know much about her following, but I have heard she has some pretty extreme fans. Apparently, there are plans to turn The Fountainhead into a film. Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are supposed to be involved, but I find it all very hard to believe.

hildegoat 03-27-2008 11:24 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Maybe RA's trying to poach some of her extreme fans.

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 11:26 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hildegoat (Post 389044)
Maybe RA's trying to poach some of her extreme fans.

Or maybe he just hasn't really read her books :lol

ferris wheel junkie 03-27-2008 11:38 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
it sounds like he doesn't like her ideas but thinks she's hot for expressing them anyway, as well as having legs and bad teeth (teet?)

Sydneyfan 03-27-2008 11:55 PM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
He does seem to have amazingly diverse taste in women.

foggy 03-28-2008 12:03 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydneyfan (Post 389057)
He does seem to have amazingly diverse taste in women.

:lol

ferris wheel junkie 03-28-2008 12:03 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
yeah, from the ones he dates you'd think that he likes women who are hollywood-pretty only.

GILMORE104 03-28-2008 12:11 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Okay Sydney, I've got to respectfully disagree here.

To call Ayn Rand naive about Socialism is a naive statement itself. Ayn Rand lived in Soviet Russia. She witnessed first hand the atrocities of the system and how poor a Socialized state is run.

You get a very vivid image of what she experienced if you read Anthem and We the Living. I would read those before you make such a criticism.

Second, the reason Ryan likes her so much is because she is an Objectivist. The idea of objectivism is to throw off the system and live being an individual. Sound familiar? The best image I can give you of what she views as a pure objectivist in The Fountainhead. Howard Roark is the epitome of what she admires in a person. To his exact opposite, Peter Keating is the epitome of a "follower" and someone who always does what is expected of him.

For Ryan, there could be no greater influence than Ayn Rand. She believed in the role of the individual, standing up to the regime and the "man".

Sydneyfan 03-28-2008 12:25 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
You're obviously much better read about Ayn Rand than I am, so I apologise if I'm talking out my arse.
Based on my limited exposure to her works however, my problem with her has always been her inability to see the multitudes of shades of grey that exist in the world.

She grew up in Communist Russia. So therefore any even vaguely socialist system is wrong, in her view. And yet, democratic socialism is a politicial viewpoint accepted in many countries - we even have a very mild form of it currently in Australia under our present government.
As for objectivism, if I seriously believed that an individual's primary purpose in life was their own personal happiness, I would be extremely depressed.

ferris wheel junkie 03-28-2008 12:34 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
there are lots of ways of being an individual.
i agree with syd, in that if my primary purpose in life was to make myself happy i'd be miserable. i notice that about a lot of people who believe that their own happiness is their goal - they're unhappy. especially people who are concerned about making lots of money for themselves.

am i right in guessing she never had children?

ferris wheel junkie 03-28-2008 12:35 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
this is also scary:

Quote:

""I would give the greatest sunset in the world for one sight of New York's skyline, the sky over New York and the will of man made visible. What other religion do we need? I feel that if a war came to threaten this, I would throw myself into space, over the city, and protect these buildings with my body.""

GILMORE104 03-28-2008 12:37 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
I understand what you're saying, but you've got to realize when Ayn Rand was writing: Her first three novels were published in the 1930's, the Fountainhead in 1943 and Atlas Shrugged in 1957. These ideas of "Democratic Socialism" didn't exist in her time. Her experience was with Socialism and Communism in Russia. Her family's business was "confiscated" during the Bolshevik Revolution when she was 12. She witnessed with her own eyes the evils of a Socialist and Communist system and even grew up before it.

In her time, there was no shade of grey. It was either Socialism/Communism or Capitalism.

I still consider her positions and beliefs far from naive.


Also, I really hope I didn't make her take on life to be some kind of utilitarian idea of "only go for my happiness." Her principle of objectivism is to stress the role of the individual in life. You don't rely on someone else to do anything for you, you do it yourself. the best example I can give is the Fountainhead. I highly recommend it.

I hope this helps :-)

ferris wheel junkie 03-28-2008 12:42 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
i don't think it's the socialist and communist systems that are evil, it's the people who abuse them for their own benefit (which is against what the systems are supposed to stand for in the first place, at the basic idea of them) who are evil. i'm not saying that communism can work, i'm saying that people are naturally selfish and are unlikely to make it work, therefore it's not a good idea.

i agree with the idea that you should do things for yourself, but i don't believe you can be happy if you don't include other people.

also, i'm just skimming wikipedia... she apparently loved aristotle, who was a big part of why women (not to mention children) got treated so badly through history... hmm.

Sydneyfan 03-28-2008 12:44 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
Well, perhaps I need to read The Fountainhead, thx :) As I've said, my reading is limited to one novel, but I still can't get my head around the philosophy that "if you want to do something, just do it yourself". It's great in theory, but harder to make happen in the real world, with all it's inequalities, racism, socio/economic divisions etc. The playing field is not even to begin with, so the game is always going to be one-sided.

Anyhow, you've started an interesting discussion, so thanks for that. :upyours

GILMORE104 03-28-2008 12:50 AM

Re: "“Ayn quests for her ideal rational hero. Anti-communist (was born in Russia) and
 
The idea here is not to get into a semantics debate about Communism. I, being almost a libertarian, feel that communism would ruin the world.

Rand's role of the individual is not a pure "happiness" driven idea. I will stress that she's not a utilitarian. She believes that the way people are most successful is if they rely on their own facilities, rather than just following in line.

I don't see what's wrong with her reading the classics to gain knowledge? The founders in America read the classics almost exclusively. The people they were reading may not have had perfect views on every single issues (though what you cite about Aristotle was not even an issue in his time.), but you can still draw something from it.

I take to heart some things that Martin Luther King said. Do I condone his infidelity in his marriage? No. But it does not take away from his preaching of equality.

You can take some great things away from Robert E. Lee about duty and hard work. Do I agree with him at one time owning slaves? No, of course not.

These points can be made forever.


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