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Old 02-28-2019, 09:22 PM   #2226
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
seriously? a 14-year-old is a child.
If a 40 something year old Ryan Adams getting naked on Skype with a 16 year old doesn't make your stomach churn, I don't know what to tell ya.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:38 PM   #2227
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If a 40 something year old Ryan Adams getting naked on Skype with a 16 year old doesn't make your stomach churn, I don't know what to tell ya.
Agreed. And to be honest, even though 18 is considered “legal” I personally think it’s cringe-worthy for a 40 something to pursue a teen of any age.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:39 PM   #2228
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
If a 40 something year old Ryan Adams getting naked on Skype with a 16 year old doesn't make your stomach churn, I don't know what to tell ya.
if the NY Times lying about her age to get clicks doesn't bother you, I don't know what to tell you
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:40 PM   #2229
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
if the NY Times lying about her age to get clicks doesn't bother you, I don't know what to tell you
Where did they?

Quote:
The Times has reviewed extensive communication between the two, including 3,217 text messages they exchanged over a nine-month period when Ava was 15 and 16.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:41 PM   #2230
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Obviously the prevailing sentiment on here is, "if Ryan is scum, it's okay for the NY Times to lie about him to amplify the impression." I could sit around writing news articles all day that were factually true but gave a greatly amplified negative impression of the subject. (Dude actually kills one person, meanwhile, completely unrelated 11 people die in the state: 12 dead after Joe Schmoe goes on rampage.)
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:43 PM   #2231
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Where did they?
You read me earlier say my free articles for the month are used up and I cannot re-read the original article and that I'm basing my comments on my original impression.... so spare me the disingenuous questions.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:44 PM   #2232
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
You read me earlier say my free articles for the month are used up and I cannot re-read the original article and that I'm basing my comments on my original impression.... so spare me the disingenuous questions.
Then you should have read closer the first time.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:48 PM   #2233
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Then you should have read closer the first time.
What a crock of shit.

The vast majority of us don't have a photographic memory... there is not an article I read two weeks ago that I could remember the specific wording of any given claim. Which is actually the whole point -- if they are phrasing things to mislead normal readers who have more important things to worry about than Ryan Adams (as opposed to those of you who are obsessed with him), that is unethical journalism.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:49 PM   #2234
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
What a crock of shit.

The vast majority of us don't have a photographic memory... there is not an article I read two weeks ago that I could remember the specific wording of any given claim. Which is actually the whole point -- if they are phrasing things to mislead normal readers who have more important things to worry about than Ryan Adams (as opposed to those of you who are obsessed with him), that is unethical journalism.
I pasted the quote in the article for you in my post. Read back.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:50 PM   #2235
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

From the original NY TImes article in reference to Ava.

Quote:
Adams was an early adopter in communicating directly with listeners, responding to fans and critics on Myspace and then Twitter and Instagram. He also used social media to scout and meet artists. It was on Twitter that he found Ava, who excitedly messaged him to say hello after she followed him and he followed her back.

“I was really alone,” Ava said in an interview, “and he was really friendly and cool.”

She had been a gifted bassist since the age of 9. By 12, she was road-tripping with her family to Manhattan for gigs with established musicians. At home, however, Ava was isolated, home-schooled because of bullying. At 13, her father died.

Adams represented the creative future she dreamed of. The star floated big ideas about her career prospects in their earliest messages, eventually suggesting that she and another teenager start a band that he could produce.


Their conversations were on and off, but a constant theme was Adams fretting about Ava’s age — and asking to keep their exchanges secret — while also indulging in sexual scenarios.

“I never see pics of you anymore,” Adams wrote in November 2014, when he had just turned 40 and Ava was newly 16. “You were blowing my mind.” He had pet names for her body parts.

Days later, Adams expressed anxiety: “If people knew they would say I was like R Kelley lol,” he wrote.

Yet within 10 minutes, the conversation again turned explicit. “I just want you to touch your nipple,” he texted, before again asking about her age. “And tell me that your mom is not gonna kill me if she finds out we even text.”

In response to Adams’s repeated pleas that she tell him she was 18 — “You have to convince me,” he wrote — Ava at times said she was. Sometimes he asked to see identification — “in the hottest way that has ever been done Lol.” She never showed him any ID.

Adams, through his lawyer, said that while he “has communications online with various fans and aspiring musicians,” he “does not recall having online communications with anyone related to anything outside of music.” The lawyer added that “if, in fact, this woman was underage, Mr. Adams was unaware.” He pointed to her performances in clubs and provided photos of Ava from that time, saying she looked “approximately 20.”

Laws regarding explicit digital communication with a minor vary from state to state and are separate from age of consent laws, which encompass physical contact. In Ohio, where Ava lived, it is a felony to solicit, exchange or possess any material that shows a person under 18 engaging in sexual activity. New York, where Adams was during some of these exchanges, has similar laws regarding children younger than 17, and federal statutes use 18 as the age of adulthood.

Several legal experts said that prosecuting such cases could involve disputes over jurisdiction and whether the adult reasonably believed the minor was of legal age, taking into account context from their conversations.

Ava said that as her communication with Adams went on, she grew uneasy about their unequal dynamic. Once, she said, the two agreed to video chat, but when they connected on Skype, Adams was already naked. “It was just sexual power,” Ava said.

As their relationship waned, Adams returned to the possibility of recording together. But for Ava, the idea that she would be objectified or have to sleep with people to get ahead “just totally put me off to the whole idea” of being a musician, she said. She never played another gig.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:52 PM   #2236
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I pasted the quote in the article for you in my post. Read back.
the quote says she was 15 and 16 when they "exchanged texts" and it doesn't say when he began sending texts of an intimate nature -- I'm sure it was an honest oversight by the writers ;-)

since we have been discussing the "fact" that Ryan was sexting a 14-year-old for like 30 pages here (including me), perhaps you could link to the posts where you corrected us about the actual content of the article as we made our baseless claims for two weeks

EDIT: 90 pages! WOW #sad
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:55 PM   #2237
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
the quote says she was 15 and 16 when they "exchanged texts" and it doesn't say when he began sending texts of an intimate nature -- I'm sure it was an honest oversight by the writers ;-)

since we have been discussing the "fact" that Ryan was sexting a 14-year-old for like 30 pages here (including me), perhaps you could link to the posts where you corrected us about the actual content of the article as we made our baseless claims for two weeks

EDIT: 90 pages! WOW #sad
They began communicating when she was 14. The texts they were able to review were when she was 15-16. It's laid out in the article, not sure where the deception is.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:00 PM   #2238
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

The quote says that he complained about her not sending him pictures anymore and him having pet names for her body parts when he had just turned 40 and she just turned 16. That would imply that pictures were being exchanged when she was 15.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:02 PM   #2239
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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The quote says that he complained about her not sending him pictures anymore and him having pet names for her body parts when he had just turned 40 and she just turned 16. That would imply that pictures were being exchanged when she was 15.
It's gross (at best).

That doesn't give the NY Times a pass.

I'm highly unconcerned about the Ryan Adams issue in specific but in the general state of American journalism given that I am mad most of the time about the country based on reading the news.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:04 PM   #2240
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
“And tell me that your mom is not gonna kill me if she finds out we even text.”
Clearly, he didn't think she was an adult.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:05 PM   #2241
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by a devil in paradise View Post
It's gross (at best).

That doesn't give the NY Times a pass.

I'm highly unconcerned about the Ryan Adams issue in specific but in the general state of American journalism given that I am mad most of the time about the country based on reading the news.
Read the article again. Maybe you'll be less confused this time.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:09 PM   #2242
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by Sydneyfan View Post
Clearly, he didn't think she was an adult.
that's the most damning thing in the whole business in my opinion -- if you have to tell a woman not to tell her mom you are doing something wrong
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:44 PM   #2243
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Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

The article quoted in the forum just now is an updated version of the article with a statement from Ryan’s lawyers so not the original article.

None of us are trying to downplay his behaviour but no one is willing to accept that their conversations were born out of love for music and not sex. He didn’t initiate these conversations.

The article spends a lot time implying behaviour without explicitly saying it. Perhaps this was to help navigate any defamation lawsuit Ryan may pursue. This sounds horrible but in the 3000 texts observed by the the NYT, why when saying their conversations turned explicit did they use the nipple quote as the lead example? He’s a fucking idiot appearing nude on Skype though. It’s hard to defend that if he genuinely knew she was underage.

There are shades of grey to this story and while all of it is appalling from a moral standpoint, it may impact the outcome of the FBI investigation.


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Old 02-28-2019, 11:01 PM   #2244
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by dmorgan1 View Post
The article quoted in the forum just now is an updated version of the article with a statement from Ryan’s lawyers so not the original article.

None of us are trying to downplay his behaviour but no one is willing to accept that their conversations were born out of love for music and not sex. He didn’t initiate these conversations.

The article spends a lot time implying behaviour without explicitly saying it. Perhaps this was to help navigate any defamation lawsuit Ryan may pursue. This sounds horrible but in the 3000 texts observed by the the NYT, why when saying their conversations turned explicit did they use the nipple quote as the lead example? He’s a fucking idiot appearing nude on Skype though. It’s hard to defend that if he genuinely knew she was underage.

There are shades of grey to this story and while all of it is appalling from a moral standpoint, it may impact the outcome of the FBI investigation.


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Which quotes were added? What was changed? Looks the same to me.
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Old 02-28-2019, 11:31 PM   #2245
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Which quotes were added? What was changed? Looks the same to me.


Sorry my bad. I thought the lawyer quotes were added after it was published. The story online now includes several follow up responses. No corrections.


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Old 02-28-2019, 11:40 PM   #2246
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by dmorgan1 View Post

There are shades of grey to this story and while all of it is appalling from a moral standpoint, it may impact the outcome of the FBI investigation.

There are only shades of grey in the Ava story if you are willing to accept that a 40 year old, semi-famous musician and a young teenage fan are on an equal footing. That's clearly not the case, is it?

As for the FBI investigation - whatever the outcome legally (and I tend to think if the NY Times had a real "gotcha" text they would have already published it), it doesn't detract from the fact that he exchanged approx 3,000 texts with Ava, some of them overtly sexual in nature, while asking her not to tell her mother about it. He either knew, or very strongly suspected she was too young. And he's 40 years old at that time, let's get this in perspective.

This, quite frankly, is not a man I could bring myself to defend or make excuses for, in any way.

And sorry, I'm not trying to have a go at you in particular. I get that you're raising these points in good faith, and you're entitled to your view. This is an issue that some of us are never going to agree on, no matter how long this thread gets.

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Old 03-01-2019, 01:19 AM   #2247
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Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydneyfan View Post

There are only shades of grey in the Ava story if you are willing to accept that a 40 year old, semi-famous musician and a young teenage fan are on an equal footing. That's clearly not the case, is it?



As for the FBI investigation - whatever the outcome legally (and I tend to think if the NY Times had a real "gotcha" text they would have already published it), it doesn't detract from the fact that he exchanged approx 3,000 texts with Ava, some of them overtly sexual in nature, while asking her not to tell her mother about it. He either knew, or very strongly suspected she was too young. And he's 40 years old at that time, let's get this in perspective.



This, quite frankly, is not a man I could bring myself to defend or make excuses for, in any way.



And sorry, I'm not trying to have a go at you in particular. I get that you're raising these points in good faith, and you're entitled to your view. This is an issue that some of us are never going to agree on, no matter how long this thread gets.

No, you’re fine. We don’t have to agree on every detail. I’m not suggesting there wasn’t a power imbalance here. Although through text message this is harder to quantify.

It is possible to communicate or engage with older people on a topic they know more about and it not be an imbalance of power or seen as a sexual advance. It did happen here, but not from the outset. And of 3000 texts we’ve only seen a handful of his texts. None from her. And not in the context of how they were said or sent. Despite the story alluding to the theme around her age.


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Old 03-01-2019, 02:14 AM   #2248
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

totally, i too need more context. comparing yourself to r kelly, pet naming body parts, and showing up naked to skype sessions with an internet fan who is minor when you’re a prominent artist in his 40s could all be totally appropriate and plausible, maybe even her fault!


Their conversations were on and off, but a constant theme was Adams fretting about Ava’s age — and asking to keep their exchanges secret — while also indulging in sexual scenarios.

“I never see pics of you anymore,” Adams wrote in November 2014, when he had just turned 40 and Ava was newly 16. “You were blowing my mind.” He had pet names for her body parts.

Days later, Adams expressed anxiety: “If people knew they would say I was like R Kelley lol,” he wrote.

Yet within 10 minutes, the conversation again turned explicit. “I just want you to touch your nipple,” he texted, before again asking about her age. “And tell me that your mom is not gonna kill me if she finds out we even text.”

In response to Adams’s repeated pleas that she tell him she was 18 — “You have to convince me,” he wrote — Ava at times said she was. Sometimes he asked to see identification — “in the hottest way that has ever been done Lol.” She never showed him any ID.


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Old 03-01-2019, 03:11 AM   #2249
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Originally Posted by andyo812 View Post
totally, i too need more context. comparing yourself to r kelly, pet naming body parts, and showing up naked to skype sessions with an internet fan who is minor when you’re a prominent artist in his 40s could all be totally appropriate and plausible, maybe even her fault!


Their conversations were on and off, but a constant theme was Adams fretting about Ava’s age — and asking to keep their exchanges secret — while also indulging in sexual scenarios.

“I never see pics of you anymore,” Adams wrote in November 2014, when he had just turned 40 and Ava was newly 16. “You were blowing my mind.” He had pet names for her body parts.

Days later, Adams expressed anxiety: “If people knew they would say I was like R Kelley lol,” he wrote.

Yet within 10 minutes, the conversation again turned explicit. “I just want you to touch your nipple,” he texted, before again asking about her age. “And tell me that your mom is not gonna kill me if she finds out we even text.”

In response to Adams’s repeated pleas that she tell him she was 18 — “You have to convince me,” he wrote — Ava at times said she was. Sometimes he asked to see identification — “in the hottest way that has ever been done Lol.” She never showed him any ID.


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I never implied it was her fault or began to suggest all of his behaviour was appropriate either. But context could change the meaning of some of their exchanges. The R Kelly comment rather than being an admission of knowing she were underage could be argued as irony, acknowledging she appeared young but took her for her word that she was 18.


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Old 03-01-2019, 05:41 AM   #2250
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Occam's Razor.
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