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Old 03-01-2019, 10:27 AM   #2301
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

As mentioned by the NYT reporters in their podcast on the topic, Ryan said multiple times he was following her career and if you were to search online or watch youtube videos of her music, by name, they would often say something about her young age, i.e. ‘15 year old bassist’.

Also when she asked ‘Do you really want to see my id’ Ryan replies ‘Only if it’s in the hottest way possible, lol’



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Old 03-01-2019, 10:29 AM   #2302
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Did Ryan’s relationship with Phoebe overlap with his marriage to Mandy Moore?

Pretty sure it did, and I’ve always been surprised that hasn’t been brought up much in all this. I suppose it could be that they were “separated” at the time, but I don’t think they filed for divorce until 2015 and all this happened in 2014. Possibly part of the reason for the divorce?
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:30 AM   #2303
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*Todd


I thought it was Tod with one d?? They made a big deal about that on his twitter thread.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:39 AM   #2304
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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SEE I KNEW YOU WERE RYAN

btw you owe Tod $150,000
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:43 AM   #2305
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I thought it was Tod with one d?? They made a big deal about that on his twitter thread.
Todd for real name, tod for the social media handle
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:44 AM   #2306
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I get when you're coming from, but I don't agree. We don't know how old he thought she was. The "She looked 20" argument came from his lawyer after producing a photo. And I don't know if she looks older than her age, because I've not made an attempt to figure out who she is.

If he thought she was 20, I don't think he would have gone through the efforts he did to conceal things. He banged Phoebe when she was 20, and he shouted her name from the rooftops. Took her on tour, released her EP, etc. etc. But, in this case, Ryan repeatedly asked for ID, told her to hide their dealings from her mother (who she lived with), and likened himself to R. Kelly. So it isn't quite as innocent.

If she were 20, I would say I don't understand why a 40 year old who pulled Mandy Moore would be interested, but they're adults so fair enough.

I agree, we don't know all the facts surrounding Ryan's perception of her age. My point is that the plausibility of the 'she looked 20' defence increases if she was 16 vs. 14.

Your comparison to Bridgers doesn't work. He publicly celebrated her as an songwriter; he did not celebrate banging her. True, he did no publicly celebrate Ava's music. Perhaps this is because he believed she was a minor. Perhaps it was because Ava had no band or professional recordings to speak of.

I agree that his references to R Kelly, and asking for ID, and worrying about Ava's Mom are signs that he was uncertain. What the NYT chose not to quote directly, or even describe in detail, are Ava's texts insisting that she was not a minor. How numerous, insistent and persuasive were those texts? Did she act offended when he asked to see ID? Again, these questions matter to the plausibility of whether RA honestly mistook her for 20.

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Old 03-01-2019, 10:44 AM   #2307
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Pretty sure it did, and I’ve always been surprised that hasn’t been brought up much in all this. I suppose it could be that they were “separated” at the time, but I don’t think they filed for divorce until 2015 and all this happened in 2014. Possibly part of the reason for the divorce?
I wonder if Mandy is/was ever pissed at Phoebe for sleeping with her husband.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:52 AM   #2308
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

In that video linked a couple pages back, the reporter says they reached Ava through other sources. Sounds like someone who was not Ava came to them with this information and how to find her. They sought her out for a story. Who sent NYT to Ava, I wonder? Also I don't remember this mentioned in the article bit if it is then my memory failed me.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:00 AM   #2309
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

I'm sure if she was talented and gigging, people close to her heard her story as to why she stopped playing.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:28 AM   #2310
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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I was just watching that TV interview with the NYT reporter, Joe Coscarelli. At one point he says that R. Kelly and Ryan Adams' behaviour are 'equally pernicious'. That is such obvious moral confusion I don't know where to begin. There is a plausible interpretation of Ryan Adams' behaviour where his worst offence is using his fame and power to pursue 20 year old girls, and then being a bully and drama queen when relationships sour. If you're temped to put that on a par with methodically recruiting and brainwashing teenagers into a sex cult, I'm sorry, you've lost the plot.
Indeed. Mr. Coscarelli has not shown himself to be that bright or capable of critical thinking. The need to flatten all offenses that fit under the purview of this buzz phrase 'sexual misconduct' speaks to a refusal to actually engage with the subject. Just as I'm not going to respect the intellect of someone who claims that shoplifting candy bars from a convenience store is equally pernicious to committing an armed robbery or embezzling millions of dollars.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:31 AM   #2311
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Did Ryan’s relationship with Phoebe overlap with his marriage to Mandy Moore?
At least legally, it did. If I remember correctly, Ryan listed August '14 as their separation date, and the divorce was filed in January of '15. At the time, I wondered if the August '14 date was to limit any claim she had towards royalties from the self-titled album.

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I agree, we don't know all the facts surrounding Ryan's perception of her age. My point is that the plausibility of the 'she looked 20' defence increases if she was 16 vs. 14.

Your comparison to Bridgers doesn't work. He publicly celebrated her as an songwriter; he did not celebrate banging her. True, he did no publicly celebrate Ava's music. Perhaps this is because he believed she was a minor. Perhaps it was because Ava had no band or professional recordings to speak of.

I agree that his references to R Kelly, and asking for ID, and worrying about Ava's Mom are signs that he was uncertain. What the NYT chose not to quote directly, or even describe in detail, are Ava's texts insisting that she was not a minor. How numerous, insistent and persuasive were those texts? Did she act offended when he asked to see ID? Again, these questions matter to the plausibility of whether RA honestly mistook her for 20.
The Phoebe comparison works because he made no attempt to hide his association with her, even if we didn't know for sure that they were sleeping together. By contrast, does anyone ever recall hearing him praise the minor's skills as a bassist? Around this time, I only recall hearing him mentioning Charlie, Don Was and Tal Wilkenfeld.

The NYT freely stated that Ava lied about her age to him. But they also state that when she asked if he really wanted to see her ID, he said only in the hottest way possible. That being said, a 40 year old should still exercise better judgment than a minor.

I don't doubt for a second that Ryan thought there was a chance that she was legal, but I also know that he was worried enough that she wasn't that it became a sticking point. And that, even with those concerns, he proceeded regardless.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:36 AM   #2312
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

Ryan just blacked out all of his social media as well.

Time to go into hiding for the next few years.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:46 AM   #2313
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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I get when you're coming from, but I don't agree. We don't know how old he thought she was. The "She looked 20" argument came from his lawyer after producing a photo. And I don't know if she looks older than her age, because I've not made an attempt to figure out who she is.

If he thought she was 20, I don't think he would have gone through the efforts he did to conceal things. He banged Phoebe when she was 20, and he shouted her name from the rooftops. Took her on tour, released her EP, etc. etc. But, in this case, Ryan repeatedly asked for ID, told her to hide their dealings from her mother (who she lived with), and likened himself to R. Kelly. So it isn't quite as innocent.

If she were 20, I would say I don't understand why a 40 year old who pulled Mandy Moore would be interested, but they're adults so fair enough.
This is a good argument, and it is hard to explain away the secrecy in any other way. One could, but it's a stretch, and by far the most plausible is that he had good reason to believe she was underage.

You can't convict in a court of law on these inferences, but they are logically sound. My general assumption is that he did know on some level, and that's disturbing and gross and stupid. I assess what he likely did for what it is, and I find the R. Kelly comparisons to be, for lack of a better term, childish.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:50 AM   #2314
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Ryan just blacked out all of his social media as well.

Time to go into hiding for the next few years.
I'm giving it 7 months.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:56 AM   #2315
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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I'm giving it 7 months.
I’ll go with July.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:08 PM   #2316
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

I might have missed it in the 94 pages already here, but do we know who Ava is? Sounds like she was a known name on the music scene at the time.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:12 PM   #2317
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And.....Sharper C deleted their Twitter. Coincidence??
Well they're back then and posting up a storm
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:19 PM   #2318
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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At least legally, it did. If I remember correctly, Ryan listed August '14 as their separation date, and the divorce was filed in January of '15. At the time, I wondered if the August '14 date was to limit any claim she had towards royalties from the self-titled album.


The Phoebe comparison works because he made no attempt to hide his association with her, even if we didn't know for sure that they were sleeping together. By contrast, does anyone ever recall hearing him praise the minor's skills as a bassist? Around this time, I only recall hearing him mentioning Charlie, Don Was and Tal Wilkenfeld.

The NYT freely stated that Ava lied about her age to him. But they also state that when she asked if he really wanted to see her ID, he said only in the hottest way possible. That being said, a 40 year old should still exercise better judgment than a minor.

I don't doubt for a second that Ryan thought there was a chance that she was legal, but I also know that he was worried enough that she wasn't that it became a sticking point. And that, even with those concerns, he proceeded regardless.
Please. Bridgers had released material, and he had worked with her at Pax Am. Ava as far as we know had no band or recordings. You think there can only be a sinister explanation for his promoting Bridgers' and not Ava? That's silly imo.

Yes, the NYT 'freely stated' that Ava lied about her age. My point was that they provided no details or direct quotes to indicate how insistent, persuasive, belligerent, etc. she was on this point. What if she spun a fairly elaborate backstory of having graduated high school, dropped out of university, etc. We have no idea; there were 3000 texts exchanged which is a lot of time to build a false impression.

And yes, plainly he should have exercised better judgment. But the condemnation he's receiving is far more damning than would be appropriate in response to bad judgment; the NYT reporter is portraying his behaviour as 'equally pernicious' as R. Kelly's methodically brainwashing teenagers into his sex cult.

We don't actually know the sequence of Ryan's shifting beliefs about Ava's age and how that influenced his making sexual advances. It could be (e.g.) that he had some initial doubts as to whether she was 20 during their initial flirtation, and at that stage made the R Kelly comment etc., and then Ava made a strong case to persuade him she was of age, and that only then, with his doubts put to rest, things turned legitimately sexual. I'm not asserting that this is the actual timeline, but it's not implausible. There were 3000 texts, of which the NYT chose to quote a small handful. And the person doing the choosing here is inclined to equate Ryan Adams's behaviour with R Kelly's -- which makes me skeptical as to his objectivity.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:40 PM   #2319
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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I wonder if Mandy is/was ever pissed at Phoebe for sleeping with her husband.
Is there any “girl code” regarding this?
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:42 PM   #2320
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Please. Bridgers had released material, and he had worked with her at Pax Am. Ava as far as we know had no band or recordings. You think there can only be a sinister explanation for his promoting Bridgers' and not Ava? That's silly imo.

Yes, the NYT 'freely stated' that Ava lied about her age. My point was that they provided no details or direct quotes to indicate how insistent, persuasive, belligerent, etc. she was on this point. What if she spun a fairly elaborate backstory of having graduated high school, dropped out of university, etc. We have no idea; there were 3000 texts exchanged which is a lot of time to build a false impression.

And yes, plainly he should have exercised better judgment. But the condemnation he's receiving is far more damning than would be appropriate in response to bad judgment; the NYT reporter is portraying his behaviour as 'equally pernicious' as R. Kelly's methodically brainwashing teenagers into his sex cult.

We don't actually know the sequence of Ryan's shifting beliefs about Ava's age and how that influenced his making sexual advances. It could be (e.g.) that he had some initial doubts as to whether she was 20 during their initial flirtation, and at that stage made the R Kelly comment etc., and then Ava made a strong case to persuade him she was of age, and that only then, with his doubts put to rest, things turned legitimately sexual. I'm not asserting that this is the actual timeline, but it's not implausible. There were 3000 texts, of which the NYT chose to quote a small handful. And the person doing the choosing here is inclined to equate Ryan Adams's behaviour with R Kelly's -- which makes me skeptical as to his objectivity.
Ava, accordingly to the article, was gigging and an accomplished bassist. Maybe that was an exaggeration by the authors, I don't know. Again, I don't know who she is. Either way, yes, I think his concerns about her age prevented him from shining a spotlight on her. I don't have to equate their abilities or material to understand that Ryan treated Ava in a different way than Phoebe. Again, he literally asked Ava not to tell her mother about him. I don't think Phoebe received that same request.

I'm sure Ava did mislead him about her age, as the article states. I'm also sure that Ryan was suspicious enough that he didn't fully believe it.

Ryan is being condemned because his own texts liken him to R. Kelly. I can't imagine a plausible scenario that justifies that text, or the attempts to hide his behavior from her mom. Is it possible that they don't present things in a chronological order? Sure, and I fully recognize that there are some gaps to be filled. We don't know why the sexual aspect of their conversations stopped, for example. I suspect because Ryan finally thought better of the situation. On the other hand, the 3,000 texts reviewed also apparently came a year into their interactions, and this behavior could have began well before then. I understand that there's room for questions, but I don't see any "a-ha!" moment where this is ever rationalized. Not when you're calling yourself R. Kelly.
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Old 03-01-2019, 12:46 PM   #2321
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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We don't actually know the sequence of Ryan's shifting beliefs about Ava's age and how that influenced his making sexual advances. It could be (e.g.) that he had some initial doubts as to whether she was 20 during their initial flirtation, and at that stage made the R Kelly comment etc., and then Ava made a strong case to persuade him she was of age, and that only then, with his doubts put to rest, things turned legitimately sexual. I'm not asserting that this is the actual timeline, but it's not implausible. There were 3000 texts, of which the NYT chose to quote a small handful. And the person doing the choosing here is inclined to equate Ryan Adams's behaviour with R Kelly's -- which makes me skeptical as to his objectivity.
Totally agree here. There is no way we can judge without knowing the full story. The argument of a lot of people here is that the quotes are so clear that a misunderstanding is impossible. And i think that this is just not true. The journalist had to build a story and for sure he will pick the quotes that fit to the story the best. left stuff away that could undermine the red line of the story. And the argument that they just wouldn't because he could sue them etc. and bc the NYT is so trustworthy is bogus bc. first the NYT is still a privately owned company and has to earn money which they surely did with this article. And second they did not lie. If you read the article closely you can see that they wrote everything really carefully. They didn't say that he knew she was underage. They just picked a few quotes and said that those text messages were written, which most probably true. They aligned the quotes so that everyone will fill in the (maybe wrong) context themselves. Now all people read the missing stuff between the lines but the NY can't be sued...
I'm not saying that it has to be like that. It is just possible.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:05 PM   #2322
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Ava, accordingly to the article, was gigging and an accomplished bassist. Maybe that was an exaggeration by the authors, I don't know. Again, I don't know who she is. Either way, yes, I think his concerns about her age prevented him from shining a spotlight on her. I don't have to equate their abilities or material to understand that Ryan treated Ava in a different way than Phoebe. Again, he literally asked Ava not to tell her mother about him. I don't think Phoebe received that same request.

I'm sure Ava did mislead him about her age, as the article states. I'm also sure that Ryan was suspicious enough that he didn't fully believe it.

Ryan is being condemned because his own texts liken him to R. Kelly. I can't imagine a plausible scenario that justifies that text, or the attempts to hide his behavior from her mom. Is it possible that they don't present things in a chronological order? Sure, and I fully recognize that there are some gaps to be filled. We don't know why the sexual aspect of their conversations stopped, for example. I suspect because Ryan finally thought better of the situation. On the other hand, the 3,000 texts reviewed also apparently came a year into their interactions, and this behavior could have began well before then. I understand that there's room for questions, but I don't see any "a-ha!" moment where this is ever rationalized. Not when you're calling yourself R. Kelly.
Yes, she was a gigging bass player, doing paid gigs for diverse musicians. She did not have an album of her own, so it would I think be odd for him to put his shoulder behind promoting her. "People, check out his footage of some middling band performing at a bar in NY! Isn't that bass playing something else?"

We have no idea whether Ryan tried to shield his relationship with Bridgers from her Mom. Apparently Bridgers has an unusually close and open relationship with her Mom. It's possible he did worry what Phoebe's mom would think, but thought it was futile trying to keep it secret. Or maybe he did try to keep it secret. Neither of us knows; you're just helping yourself to whatever assumptions are convenient.

You're missing my point about R. Kelly. Yes, he jokingly suggested that people might liken him to R. Kelly. But the NYT reporter is literally equating RA and R Kelly's behaviour, calling them "equally pernicious". Do agree with me that this is ridiculous? If you're inclined to side with the NYT writer on this point, I suggest you do more reading about R. Kelly's backstory. The equation is obscene. I don't know what you're getting at stressing that Ryan compared himself to R. Kelly. I've heard people say something offensive and then worry aloud that people will think they're like Hitler. Needless to say, these people are not actually admitting to being like Hitler.

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Old 03-01-2019, 01:35 PM   #2323
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Yes, she was a gigging bass player, doing paid gigs for diverse musicians. She did not have an album of her own, so it would I think be odd for him to put his shoulder behind promoting her. "People, check out his footage of some middling band performing at a bar in NY! Isn't that bass playing something else?"

We have no idea whether Ryan tried to shield his relationship with Bridgers from her Mom. Apparently Bridgers has an unusually close and open relationship with her Mom. It's possible he did worry what Phoebe's mom would think, but thought it was futile trying to keep it secret. Or maybe he did try to keep it secret. Neither of us knows; you're just helping yourself to whatever assumptions are convenient.

You're missing my point about R. Kelly. Yes, he jokingly suggested that people might liken him to R. Kelly. But the NYT reporter is literally equating RA and R Kelly's behaviour, calling them "equally pernicious". Do agree with me that this is ridiculous? If you're inclined to side with the NYT writer on this point, I suggest you do more reading about R. Kelly's backstory. The equation is obscene. I don't know what you're getting at stressing that Ryan compared himself to R. Kelly. I've heard people say something offensive and then worry aloud that people will think they're like Hitler. Needless to say, these people are not actually admitting to being like Hitler.
Ive heard that R Kelly is on tape literally urinating on underage girls for his sexual gratification.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:47 PM   #2324
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Ive heard that R Kelly is on tape literally urinating on underage girls for his sexual gratification.
Ryan Adams had a consensual fling with Phoebe Bridgers, and when the relationship went sour had a change of heart about touring with her. Equally pernicious!
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:06 PM   #2325
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Re: Alt-Country R. Kelly: The Thread

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Ryan Adams had a consensual fling with Phoebe Bridgers, and when the relationship went sour had a change of heart about touring with her. Equally pernicious!
Seriously? You need to change the comparison to the Phoebe Bridgers part of his abuse to make it sound better?
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