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Old 05-02-2011, 06:26 PM   #51
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

After the cheering has died down it's going to be time to ask some tough questions of Pakistan. Either they have the most incompetent intelligence network in the world or they were deliberately ignoring Bin Laden's presence.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:17 PM   #52
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

There needs to be a consortium grant organized to commission Iron Maiden to write a 20 minute epic about this day.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:30 AM   #53
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Whenever big news occurs, stupid people everywhere turn to Facebook.....



http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q...!/OsamaNotDead


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Osama "buried at sea" yeah riiiiiight this all sounds like a ploy to get approval numbers up in preparation for the next election. First the long form birth certificate of Obama appears...then not even a couple weeks later magically Osama is killed with no proof. Sounds like someone is pushing the patriotic button hard. People in this country will believe anything....or it could be more ominous as in a reason for a major terrorist attack "retaliation". The government did it on 9/11 and they'll do it again.
12 hours ago

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This is so typical of the U.S. Another news story with so many holes and flaws. More questions and less answers. Its all BS. I don't believe this for a second. Just like the FACT that he was CIA. Nobody talks about this!!

Last edited by Sydneyfan; 05-03-2011 at 12:41 AM..
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:23 AM   #54
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by Sydneyfan View Post
Whenever big news occurs, stupid people everywhere turn to Facebook.....



http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q...!/OsamaNotDead
Completely ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Scenario:
Obama: Hey, Joe? You know what? How about we just say that we killed OBL and dumped his body in the sea? Then everyone will think we're great for getting him?
Biden: Sounds like a great idea boss.

One week later:
Obama: Hey Joe? So um, this new video just surfaced of OBL laughing at us and telling the entire world that he's still alive. I can't believe you didn't pull me up on such an obvious flaw in my plan. Now I look more stupid than Dubya. Do you know how stupid that makes me, Joe?
Biden: .......
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:27 AM   #55
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Anybody here have friends post the below as their facebook status?

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

I had at least a couple. Funny thing is, Martin Luther King, Jr didn't even say that. Someone just made it up, said that MLK said it, posted it on twitter and off it went. Now it's all over the place.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:47 AM   #56
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by Sydneyfan View Post
Whenever big news occurs, stupid people everywhere turn to Facebook.....



http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q...!/OsamaNotDead

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Old 05-03-2011, 08:04 AM   #57
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Yeah... at least when I make crackpot comments (all of mine on this thread), I call myself GoodSkanky and post them on a Ryan Adams fansite! Facebook is off limits for the tactful in this matter!
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:45 PM   #58
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukin View Post
Anybody here have friends post the below as their facebook status?

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

I had at least a couple. Funny thing is, Martin Luther King, Jr didn't even say that. Someone just made it up, said that MLK said it, posted it on twitter and off it went. Now it's all over the place.
I actually am finding this entire quote thing interesting. Turns out MLK DID say most of it:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...tation/238257/
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:41 PM   #59
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Echoing that semi-fake MLK quote, don't you guys think it's hypocritical of the USA to have murdered Osama and claimed it in the name of freedom and democracy? Surely if we, the West, wanted to show a different way to those opposed to our way of life, arresting Osama and giving him a fair trial and prison would have been the better road to have taken? In my opinion, the USA's actions are the same despicable language that Osama promotes. You cannot answer violence with violence.

People have been likening Osama to Hitler, but Nazi war criminals were given fair trial. If a superpower like the USA cannot begin a dialogue with terrorists or understand why their way of life is so repellent to others that Pakistan might conceal Osama's whereabouts, the terrible events of 9/11 will never be given closure.. because there will always be the danger they will happen again. I'm from Northern Ireland and the only way significant acts of violence have ever been ceased here is by the openening of meaningful dialogue between both sides. The USA can dress it up however they want, but that image of Obama and Clinton et al sitting watching the murder happen in real time; to me (and to many other countries not part of our society), it's counter-terrorism.

September 11th was a horrific day. I was shocked beyond belief and felt it was an action of grotestque slaughter. But until the United States deals with it's actions and atrocities in Afghanistan, Iraq and most importantly their funding of the barbaric Israeli regime... nothing will change. Osama may be dead, but the killing of thousands upon thousands of innocents at the hands of the USA will continue. As a result, terrorists will continue to want to strike at the heart of the Western belief system.

I believe that the USA has the capacity to be an inspiration to the rest of the world. I think that our Western ideals are the way forward. I believe that the United States Constitution is one of the most important, inspirational and freeing concepts humanity has. But until the USA accepts that other people in the world view them in the same manner the USA views terrorists as, they will always have enemies. I am so disappointed in Obama, a man I considered to be level-headed and educated to come out and echo George Bush-eqsue sentiments, tainting words like "freedom" and "democracy" with murder.

"Deserved" or not, if we, the West want to show our enemies why we care about our way of life and commit to it; we need to be the bigger people. The sight of mob-mentality outside the White House and people chanting USA! USA! in the name of murder is not freedom. It's existing by the same principles of those who carried out 9/11 and it's stupidity to not understand how foreign policy actions carried out by the USA have negative reverberations.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:11 PM   #60
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

I don't believe Osama would have been taken any other way. Is this not better than dropping a bomb on the place? Yeah, the mission was to kill him, but I don't think our men would have shot him if they were met with no resistance. It was better for these men to enter the mansion knowing they had the green light, rather than having to risk making an arrest.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:14 PM   #61
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

I agree with you on most of this, Plath.

Alot of what happens in the middle east from the nations of the west is terrorism, only with Jerry Bruckheimer budgets!

The whole USA USA thing is as bad as the street dancing that happened after 9/11.

Hard to say whether Osama would have gotten a fair trial or not... he either would have SO many connections that he's basically walk.... OR a ridiculously unfair trial where all the "bad guy" rhetoric would win regardless of the actual court evidence. It would have been a disaster either way (not that this outcome is so hot for him!).
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:16 PM   #62
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Rob's got a good point here...
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:20 PM   #63
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

I also don't agree with the celebration outside the White House. It felt like the US just won a sporting event. It may have been a victory for the good guys, but I don't think that is how people should react to it.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:29 PM   #64
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by GoodSkanky View Post
Hard to say whether Osama would have gotten a fair trial or not... he either would have SO many connections that he's basically walk.... OR a ridiculously unfair trial where all the "bad guy" rhetoric would win regardless of the actual court evidence. It would have been a disaster either way (not that this outcome is so hot for him!).
Not to mention all logistics in extraditing him and then setting up a trial and then whatever the outcome would have been.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:29 PM   #65
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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I also don't agree with the celebration outside the White House. It felt like the US just won a sporting event. It may have been a victory for the good guys, but I don't think that is how people should react to it.

Yeah, we could have been a little classier about it.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:30 PM   #66
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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I also don't agree with the celebration outside the White House. It felt like the US just won a sporting event. It may have been a victory for the good guys, but I don't think that is how people should react to it.
I agree. It's a serious matter, people shouldn't be whooping it up like someone just hit a home run.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:32 PM   #67
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

Agreed.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:54 PM   #68
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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I also don't agree with the celebration outside the White House. It felt like the US just won a sporting event. It may have been a victory for the good guys, but I don't think that is how people should react to it.
This!!! Do you have Facebook? Did you happen to check that shit out after it was announced that they had killed him? It made me just as sick as the people jumping around outside the whitehouse like a bunch of bad drunks after a soccer game..
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:31 PM   #69
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I don't believe Osama would have been taken any other way. Is this not better than dropping a bomb on the place? Yeah, the mission was to kill him, but I don't think our men would have shot him if they were met with no resistance. It was better for these men to enter the mansion knowing they had the green light, rather than having to risk making an arrest.
I do know what you're saying Rob but even that term "green light" is problematic for me. Whose green light exactly is that? The US government determines itself as some kind of mediator force where they can administer what they deem appropriate action when in actuality, they're just a government, like any other government of any other country in the world. Hypothetically speaking (because that's all we can do) perhaps working diplomatically and fostering better relations with Pakistan could have made the situation different resulting in a handover of Bin Laden and trying to combat terrorism in a way that unites all countries. It may have taken many more years and probably would not have had the victorious impact Bin Laden's assassination had but it could have changed the pace of how the world deals with international terrorism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSkanky
Hard to say whether Osama would have gotten a fair trial or not... he either would have SO many connections that he's basically walk.... OR a ridiculously unfair trial where all the "bad guy" rhetoric would win regardless of the actual court evidence. It would have been a disaster either way (not that this outcome is so hot for him!).
I also can see what you're saying but for me, it would be the principle of a trial that matters - not even the actual trial itself. If Osama were tried it would be a statement saying "we accept what has been done to us but are choosing to take the actual REAL democratic reaction to the situation. We are a more enlightened people". And it is only when an event like that occurs, that real progress will be made internationally in terms of the clashing of ideologies that is occurring right now.

On a side note, the point you make about Osama's connections opens a whole new can of worms. I wonder how many American citizens are aware of the fact Bin Laden worked for the US in ridding Afghanistan of the Russians in the 1970/80s. This, of course was when Communism was the intangible threat and ultimate danger to "our way of life". And if we can all recall, the only way out of that dangerous mess was diplomacy.

The general point I'm trying to make here, if you guys are interested.. this is the inspiration for how I try to live my life. Northern Ireland has been plagued with terrorism since it's inception. In fact my home town was bombed badly in 1998 on a smaller ratio than 9/11 but an amount of deaths that mirror that dreadful event. The only way we got to where we all are now is through diplomacy - and in actual fact, Bill and Hilary Clinton were very important to our country becoming somewhat stable again. The person who has inspired me most to love my neighbour essentially and want to work together and live as a pacifist is not a politician, but a man whose daughter was murdered in the second-largest instance of death in NI (my home town being the worst).

This is the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_..._campaigner%29. But the important quote is:

Quote:
In an interview with the BBC, Wilson described with anguish his last conversation with his daughter and his feelings toward her killers: "She held my hand tightly, and gripped me as hard as she could. She said, 'Daddy, I love you very much.' Those were her exact words to me, and those were the last words I ever heard her say." To the astonishment of listeners, Wilson went on to add, "But I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life. She was a great wee lassie. She loved her profession. She was a pet. She's dead. She's in heaven and we shall meet again. I will pray for these men tonight and every night." As historian Jonathan Bardon recounts, "No words in more than twenty-five years of violence in Northern Ireland had such a powerful, emotional impact."
That man, Gordon Wilson lost his daughter in a horrific bombing. But he was able to say that he would pray for the men who did it. He bore no grudge. With these words, he saved lives - no-one retaliated as a result of that particular bombing. To me, he is a true enlightened person. And I think with all the talk of "good guys" and integration of church and state (which I do not agree with btw) and the sheer intelligence of the people operating the US government - I can't understand how no-one can mirror the opinions of an ordinary, decent, bereaved man.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:56 PM   #70
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by plath View Post
Echoing that semi-fake MLK quote, don't you guys think it's hypocritical of the USA to have murdered Osama and claimed it in the name of freedom and democracy? Surely if we, the West, wanted to show a different way to those opposed to our way of life, arresting Osama and giving him a fair trial and prison would have been the better road to have taken? In my opinion, the USA's actions are the same despicable language that Osama promotes. You cannot answer violence with violence.
First, No. I don't think it's hypocritical.

Second, I don't think he was killed in the name of freedom and democracy. He was killed in the name of vengeance and justice.

Third, Allowing Bin Laden to live in prison for the rest of his life would not rise to the level of justice IMO. He would be like Manson and would receive fan mail from every jackoff terrorist wannabe for the rest of his life. He would champion his cause as a political prisoner to a dictatorial regime. Even if he persuades only five people, I would never want to give him the satisfaction.

Fourth, have you read Osama bin Laden's rhetoric? In fact, calling it rhetoric is too kind.... his demagoguery

Quote:
People have been likening Osama to Hitler, but Nazi war criminals were given fair trial. If a superpower like the USA cannot begin a dialogue with terrorists or understand why their way of life is so repellent to others that Pakistan might conceal Osama's whereabouts, the terrible events of 9/11 will never be given closure.. because there will always be the danger they will happen again. I'm from Northern Ireland and the only way significant acts of violence have ever been ceased here is by the openening of meaningful dialogue between both sides. The USA can dress it up however they want, but that image of Obama and Clinton et al sitting watching the murder happen in real time; to me (and to many other countries not part of our society), it's counter-terrorism.
The difference you over-look is that the Nazi's represented a recognized nation: Germany. Al Qaeda does not fall into any discernible category of a nation, and therefore are not afforded the same protections under things like the Geneva Convention. This is why some nations don't want to recognize Israel or Palestine.

Quote:
September 11th was a horrific day. I was shocked beyond belief and felt it was an action of grotestque slaughter. But until the United States deals with it's actions and atrocities in Afghanistan, Iraq and most importantly their funding of the barbaric Israeli regime... nothing will change. Osama may be dead, but the killing of thousands upon thousands of innocents at the hands of the USA will continue. As a result, terrorists will continue to want to strike at the heart of the Western belief system.
You have it backwards... it was due to nearly seven terrorist attacks against the United States that we then moved into Afghanistan. USS Cole, First WTC bombing, American Embassy in Kenya, 9/11 which included NYC, Arlington Va, and ultimately Pennsylvania.

Decrying either Israel or Palestine as being the barbaric ones is an awfully simplistic view of that quarrel, and post WWII the United States was the only nation who has really agreed to protect who were ultimately refugees of the Holocaust. The United Kingdom came up with the bright idea of putting them where they were and effectively said "fuck it, we're out". Also, I do not believe that was the cause of 9/11, no matter how much bin Laden stated it, or how much Ahmadinejad says it. Talk to the average Iranian person, they really have no problem with the United States while still being presented with the same information. So if your conclusion is correct, why is there a gap?

Quote:
I believe that the USA has the capacity to be an inspiration to the rest of the world. I think that our Western ideals are the way forward. I believe that the United States Constitution is one of the most important, inspirational and freeing concepts humanity has. But until the USA accepts that other people in the world view them in the same manner the USA views terrorists as, they will always have enemies. I am so disappointed in Obama, a man I considered to be level-headed and educated to come out and echo George Bush-eqsue sentiments, tainting words like "freedom" and "democracy" with murder.
The principles of our Constitution simply cannot exist in the Middle East IMO. The first Amendment alone is a deal breaker for 99% of the governments in the rest of the world.

Quote:
"Deserved" or not, if we, the West want to show our enemies why we care about our way of life and commit to it; we need to be the bigger people. The sight of mob-mentality outside the White House and people chanting USA! USA! in the name of murder is not freedom. It's existing by the same principles of those who carried out 9/11 and it's stupidity to not understand how foreign policy actions carried out by the USA have negative reverberations.
I'm more and more inclined to people not needing to celebrate. But isn't it just as possible that this was American's form of achieving closure? Thousands of people were murdered at the hands of Osama bin Laden and for eleven years thumbed his nose at those families. You ask for a trial: he has consistently admitted guilt, and pridefully claimed he planned and executed the attack. In his instance, that's trial enough for me.

Plath, I understand why you feel the way you do, I just don't accept the premise that with regards to ObL, the United States is the bad guy. sorry
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:22 PM   #71
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Did latest WikiLeaks revelations force U.S. to take out Bin Laden?

WikiLeaks may have triggered the killing of Osama Bin Laden, it was suggested last night.

For although the CIA has thought since September that he was in hiding in Abbottabad, special forces stormed his fortress only days after the website published new secret documents.

These made reference to named ‘couriers’ carrying Bin Laden’s message to his followers, and also to Abbottabad as a possible Al Qaeda bolthole.

America has already revealed that it was led to Bin Laden by tracking a man identified as his key courier.

When that courier was found in Abbottabad, the CIA began surveillance that led to the raid.

As a result, last night it was suggested the operation had to be launched before Bin Laden knew the game was up.

The theory is based on a leaked U.S. Defence Department assessment of Guantanamo Bay prisoner Abu Faraj al-Libi, 40.

The assessment, currently available on the internet, was among information first released to newspapers including the Guardian and the Telegraph, and identifies al-Libi as an operational chief of Al Qaeda, and long-term close associate of Bin Laden.

After working at the centre of the terror network in Afghanistan for more than a decade, al-Libi fled to Pakistan following the Allied conquest of Kabul in November 2001.

The top secret document claims: ‘In July 2003 In July 2003, al-Libi received a letter from Osama Bin Laden’s designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organizing travel, and distributing funds to families in Pakistan.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Obama-out.html
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:26 PM   #72
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

I can really see your point of view Gilmore and I appreciate the time you took to write it out. I think your opinions reflect the opinion anyone would have of an imperial country/international superpower if they were proud of being from that country.

Bin Laden was killed in the name of freedom and democracy because these are the terms that the US perpetuates they are the keepers of. He was, I agree also killed in vengence. Not justice. To me, the actions of the US are as equal to the actions of the terrorists who would inflict murder on anyone. To me, murder is murder and it isn't justice. We pride ourselves on being the enlighened people and to murder those who murder us and pass it off as something else is hypocritical and symptomatic of the problems that dominate the USA. The idea that the USA can do whatever they want, to whoever they want, whenever they want. And the blindsightedness that comes with them acting out on other countries and then not looking at their own actions.

You're probably right, Osama would have been a Manson-like figure and as much as that would disgust me, it doesn't give anyone the right to take another human being's life. Osama being imprisoned would have been a major victory for rational thought and for a better way of life. With his murder, the US once again prove their inability to leave the mob-mentality. In no way do I agree with any of Bin Laden's rhetorics! Just because I say I don't believe the murder of a murderer is right doesn't mean I agree with him.

I just feel that we need to learn why these terrorists hate us the way they do, in order to change their minds and unite the world in peace, if that would ever be possible. I feel that we need to treat them in the way they have never been treated before, in a way they would hate - through law and fairness and everything that the West stands for. By answering violence with violence, the US is communicating on the same despicible level as Bin Laden and I feel that the West is better than that.

My main problem with what you're saying is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILMORE104 View Post
The difference you over-look is that the Nazi's represented a recognized nation: Germany. Al Qaeda does not fall into any discernible category of a nation, and therefore are not afforded the same protections under things like the Geneva Convention. This is why some nations don't want to recognize Israel or Palestine.
This is the whole problem and why we need to open a dialogue with terrorists. Bin Laden and his followers have something more than a country, they have a spiritual quest (in their minds) to do what they do. They believe that they are better than any country, any ideal: that they are sent by God. They don't care about the Geneva Convention, they don't care about anything we have set our human standards by because they, in their minds believe, they are better than countries and conventions and the UN and the USA and everything. We have to understand why in order to stop them. A long and difficult dialogue needs to be established. All that has occured as a result of Bin Laden's death is the fear of retailation and probably Bin Laden's followers are really happy he's gone to the afterlife to his nine virgins and party celebrations as a result of what they believe to be, his having lived a holy life.

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You have it backwards... it was due to nearly seven terrorist attacks against the United States that we then moved into Afghanistan. USS Cole, First WTC bombing, American Embassy in Kenya, 9/11 which included NYC, Arlington Va, and ultimately Pennsylvania.
You have your historical facts right but your opinion, to me, is just typically American (sorry there's no other way I can describe it). Firstly, take a look at the list of countries bombed by the US since WW2 (http://www.btinternet.com/~davidbeau...istbombed.html) and think of the thousands of dead and the families and people who hate the USA for the pain inflicted upon them. Such facts go hand in hand with being an imperialist superpower, I know. But it doesn't stop some people hating the USA for everything it stands for.

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Decrying either Israel or Palestine as being the barbaric ones is an awfully simplistic view of that quarrel, and post WWII the United States was the only nation who has really agreed to protect who were ultimately refugees of the Holocaust. The United Kingdom came up with the bright idea of putting them where they were and effectively said "fuck it, we're out". Also, I do not believe that was the cause of 9/11, no matter how much bin Laden stated it, or how much Ahmadinejad says it. Talk to the average Iranian person, they really have no problem with the United States while still being presented with the same information. So if your conclusion is correct, why is there a gap?
Secondly - what right does the USA have to "protect" the refugees of the holocaust? What right did the USA have to give the jewish people (not gypsies, homosexuals or any other major group exterminated by the Nazis) land that was already occupied by others? And forcibly remove them? And then fund Israel and arm them with nuclear weapons (thus creating a US friendly middle eastern bloc, how handy) and then systematically create a whole new bunch of refugees in the form of the Palestinian people - half of which live in exile in Jordan and Saudi Arabia: the other half are imposed in a nazi-like ghetto in Gaza city, sound-bombed every night, not given food and water. And then when international peace representatives try and bring them food, books, clean water, medicine, the American funded Israelis kill them or send their flotillas back?

You grossly underestimate the anger and hatred felt by the Palestinian people towards America. The point you make about Iranians is a very generalised one, but you have to take into consideration the divisions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims and the role that plays in what you perceive as their lack of sympathy.

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The principles of our Constitution simply cannot exist in the Middle East IMO. The first Amendment alone is a deal breaker for 99% of the governments in the rest of the world.
I agree with you 100%. Which is why a different approach needs to be taken with the Middle East in order for us to exist peacefully. We need a dialogue. Not murder!

I hope I haven't come off as dismissive of your opinions and I do agree with you on certain points. But the USA can't have it both ways: as the true dispensers of freedom and justice of the world and also the government that sends secret groups into other countries to assassinate enemies. And you can't fund Israel and bomb and persecute others without anger and resentment brewing.

It's a Catch 22, the whole thing. I just wish that someone in the Obama administration had the same kind of guts that people like Robert Kennedy had - to stand up to violence and embrace only peacable means of communication.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:47 PM   #73
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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If a superpower like the USA cannot begin a dialogue with terrorists...
You say 'dialogue' as if these individuals actually want to communicate with us. To that, I say good luck.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:59 PM   #74
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post
You say 'dialogue' as if these individuals actually want to communicate with us. To that, I say good luck.
But it's the only way forward. Tit-for-tat killings just escalate the entire situation. What other way do you see a resolve to this?
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:25 PM   #75
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Reportedly Dead

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Originally Posted by plath View Post
I can really see your point of view Gilmore and I appreciate the time you took to write it out. I think your opinions reflect the opinion anyone would have of an imperial country/international superpower if they were proud of being from that country.
I think we might disagree on a definitional level, in which case our discussion will likely be two ships passing in the night. The definition I use for imperialism (source wiki but it's of another source) is: as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, "the creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination."

I do not believe the United States falls into that category. When I think of empires, I think of Rome (at times), the British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, etc... These are nations that establish puppet governments in a distant land with the intention of keeping them subordinate for time in memoriam. The closest argument people could use would be Afghanistan, and Iraq, but the United States Government has been clear that the goal is to have these states establish themselves so that they may re-enter the global community as equals. Good examples of this from history would be post WWII West Germany, and Japan. The Soviet Union post WWII is a great example of my definition of imperialism: establishing East Germany as a subordinate state to the overarching Soviet government. There was never any intention by the Soviets to reintroduce East Germany back into the world community, or even to unite it with the rest of the state.

That said, me being a proud American does not preclude me from being critical of my governments actions. One of the greatest aspects of being an American is that I, without fear, can question my government as is identified in the First Amendment. This is not the characteristic which exists in any imperialist government.

Quote:
Bin Laden was killed in the name of freedom and democracy because these are the terms that the US perpetuates they are the keepers of. He was, I agree also killed in vengence. Not justice. To me, the actions of the US are as equal to the actions of the terrorists who would inflict murder on anyone. To me, murder is murder and it isn't justice. We pride ourselves on being the enlighened people and to murder those who murder us and pass it off as something else is hypocritical and symptomatic of the problems that dominate the USA. The idea that the USA can do whatever they want, to whoever they want, whenever they want. And the blindsightedness that comes with them acting out on other countries and then not looking at their own actions.
I agree that as an institution the United States stands for freedom and democracy (though I don't agree with the latter), but I do not accept that that was the driving factor behind killing Osama bin Laden. To the question of justice, this really hinges on our definition of justice. There are literally as many definitions of justice as there are words in this response, but I find myself most accepting of the definition of justice as attributed to the Lockean concept of natural law. Similar to Newton's third law "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", justice is attributed to the fulfillment of a reaction that is determined by the actions taken. For instance, the United States, as a matter of law, defines the penalty for terrorism as death. Fitting it under the natural law definition, bin Laden achieved the ultimate form of justice for his actions. I understand that my conclusion hinges on two assumptions: 1. That you accept the concept of natural law and 2. You believe the death penalty as carried out by the state is ever acceptable. To the latter issue, I do believe there are instances in which the death penalty serves as the correct punishment for an action taken. I won't list those instances, but would be happy should you want them.

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With his murder, the US once again prove their inability to leave the mob-mentality.
In accordance with what I state above, I do not believe this killing falls into the category of "mob-mentality." The citizens of Italy stringing up Mussolini and stoning him in the streets is mob-mentality. That did not occur here.

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This is the whole problem and why we need to open a dialogue with terrorists. Bin Laden and his followers have something more than a country, they have a spiritual quest (in their minds) to do what they do. They believe that they are better than any country, any ideal: that they are sent by God. They don't care about the Geneva Convention, they don't care about anything we have set our human standards by because they, in their minds believe, they are better than countries and conventions and the UN and the USA and everything. We have to understand why in order to stop them. A long and difficult dialogue needs to be established. All that has occured as a result of Bin Laden's death is the fear of retailation and probably Bin Laden's followers are really happy he's gone to the afterlife to his nine virgins and party celebrations as a result of what they believe to be, his having lived a holy life.
This is where I think we diverge. In one sentence you decry the United States for acting as imperialists, but then you expect the United States to open a dialogue. I mentioned the Geneva Convention as something in which the United States works within the international community to seek better ends. Your solution of a dialogue with groups like Al Qaeda is tantamount to asking the New York Yankees to play in the Super Bowl. Your asking the United States to open a dialogue as a rational state with a group that is an irrational non-state.

I also fear you are trying to provide a rational solution to an irrational group of actors. For example, I'm in favor of the United States opening a dialogue with the Iranian Government. Iran is a state within the international community which provides a vehicle for negotiation. Al Qaeda does not fall into that category, and providing them the ability to claim the beginnings of hegemony by raising them to the level of a state is a dangerous proposal. Additionally, allowing Osama bin Laden to happily come to the negotiating table after is complicity in 9/11 does not allow for justice to be served for the loss of innocent citizen's lives. Also, could we agree that 9/11 would effectively end any negotiations between rational actors? It did when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. Northern Ireland does not even fit into that category as their disputes with the United Kingdom was over territory. You admit yourself that Al Qaeda's is not in that purview.

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You have your historical facts right but your opinion, to me, is just typically American (sorry there's no other way I can describe it). Firstly, take a look at the list of countries bombed by the US since WW2 (http://www.btinternet.com/~davidbeau...istbombed.html) and think of the thousands of dead and the families and people who hate the USA for the pain inflicted upon them. Such facts go hand in hand with being an imperialist superpower, I know. But it doesn't stop some people hating the USA for everything it stands for.
The link you provided doesn't go where I think you wanted it to, but I would contend that there is a rational state interest in many of the items cited.

Also, to use your logic, the people who were celebrating last night have just as much right to hate people like Al Qaeda for the loss of innocent American lives. If people in other nations can justify their actions due to an attack, so then can the American people. (I don't necessarily agree with this, but rather am taking your logical progressions to their logical ends)

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Secondly - what right does the USA have to "protect" the refugees of the holocaust? What right did the USA have to give the jewish people (not gypsies, homosexuals or any other major group exterminated by the Nazis) land that was already occupied by others? And forcibly remove them? And then fund Israel and arm them with nuclear weapons (thus creating a US friendly middle eastern bloc, how handy) and then systematically create a whole new bunch of refugees in the form of the Palestinian people - half of which live in exile in Jordan and Saudi Arabia: the other half are imposed in a nazi-like ghetto in Gaza city, sound-bombed every night, not given food and water. And then when international peace representatives try and bring them food, books, clean water, medicine, the American funded Israelis kill them or send their flotillas back?
Here I believe you're asking a century old question that I won't pretend to have a good answer to. Some would offer that German Jews could not be returned back to Germany as anti-semitism existed long before Hitler. Does this make me an apologist to Israel for everything they do? No. My point was to establish that Israel is not the only group guilty of barbarism.

Your reference of the flotilla incident is also far more nuanced than you give it credit for. From what I remember those flotillas were carrying arms under the guise of transporting food, water, etc...

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I agree with you 100%. Which is why a different approach needs to be taken with the Middle East in order for us to exist peacefully. We need a dialogue. Not murder!
My concern is that I do not believe a dialogue with terrorist groups to be a means to an end of any problems we might have. My support is the inevitable breakdown of talks over fundamental principles that are non-negotiable to Americans.

Quote:
I hope I haven't come off as dismissive of your opinions and I do agree with you on certain points. But the USA can't have it both ways: as the true dispensers of freedom and justice of the world and also the government that sends secret groups into other countries to assassinate enemies. And you can't fund Israel and bomb and persecute others without anger and resentment brewing.
There was nothing "secret" about this mission outside of the manner in which it was conducted. Under your conclusion here the United States would have been wrong even if they had captured bin Laden alive and allowed him to stand trial. As it stands, the United States for decades has had a monetary agreement with the Pakistani government to counter terrorism and to find and bring bin Laden to justice. Living for six years in a "mansion" an hour's drive from Islamabad does not strike me as a concerted effort to pursue him, given the billions of dollars the United States has given to that cause. So if the end result was to launch a covert mission to capture (or kill in this instance) bin Laden in a nation which was taking advantage of the principles you push for, so be it.

To stress the point: The United States has been perfectly transparent with why they did what they did in this instance, and did not hide their actions from the world. The goal was to bring bin Laden to justice, and in my opinion they did.

Additionally, for the past two years the United States' relations with Israel have been luke warm at best.

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It's a Catch 22, the whole thing. I just wish that someone in the Obama administration had the same kind of guts that people like Robert Kennedy had - to stand up to violence and embrace only peacable means of communication.
I'm not sure if you meant John Kennedy or Robert Kennedy, but either way your example doesn't hold true. The Kennedy's were President and Attorney General, respectively, during the Bay of Pigs assault in an effort to overthrow Castro.

The better example would be Clinton who had the opportunity to go after bin Laden when he was President, but chose not to, in part, as it would have been an "invasion" of another's sovereign territory. 9/11 occurred five years later. At the very least we have to admit this is not something Obama just waltzed in and said "'leggo". These decisions are difficult, and it's all too simplistic, and largely unproductive, to Monday morning quarterback on decisions like this.

As a final thought: I'm more and more becoming a Libertarian when it comes to my view of foreign entanglements, but like it or not, the United States is viewed as an important actor within the international sphere, both economically and politically. That does not rise to any definition of imperialist, though.
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