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Ryan Adams, abuse, the Stans, and people who believe no apology is good enough


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Old 02-15-2019, 11:04 PM   #851
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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thereís folks on twitter posting about Ryan blocking them. curious if these were past blocks or at the time they posted.


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I've seen some comments about this too - I got the impression these were recent blocks. He's a complete glutton for punishment if he's sitting around reading social media about himself right now.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:05 PM   #852
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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I've seen some comments about this too - I got the impression these were recent blocks. He's a complete glutton for punishment if he's sitting around reading social media about himself right now.
Can you really imagine him doing something else though?
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:09 PM   #853
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Can you really imagine him doing something else though?
Ha no, you are probably right. I think we can count the internet as something else he has an unhealthy relationship with.
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:34 AM   #854
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Curious, from a woman's point of view:

Do you think there's any way Ryan could come back from this? Not professionally even, but just in terms of somewhat rehabbing your view of him.

Like, if he went to some sort of mental health facility and came back in a couple years saying he wanted to help women and be an example to men and then actually followed through on that. Would that mitigate this at all or is the damage done to such an extent that it would almost not matter.

I guess, assume that he's being completely genuine. And, obviously, I don't for a second believe he'll do any of this. I guess I'm just somewhat troubled, on an intellectual level about what we do with these people. It'd almost be easier if we could send them to jail and then have them come out having served their time. While it's down my list of worries, there is a nagging voice in my head that wonders if some of the honesty of these discussions isn't stifled by people believing any admission is a death sentence.

Would it be better culturally if people knew they could say "yes, I did that" and then we could have a conversation about the facts? Because right now, it almost makes sense to deny, deny, deny, which closes up a lot of conversation about what happened and why while we're debating truth.
I agree the public/cultural conversations would have a much higher likelihood of being productive (in terms of finding solutions that are more widely appealing) if participants on all sides of the issue (even--or especially--those whose genuine positions are on the fringe and would come across as trolling to the most vocal in the discussion) felt that offering their perspective would be met with at least some contemplation rather than incendiary backlash... but what etiquette is necessary to get there, and how do you promote that etiquette society-wide? In terms of the #MeToo movement, I think there's an elephant in the room that still hasn't gotten its fair address (although it does get some, evidenced clearly within these threads, even), but perhaps on such a massive scale, a slower unfolding of the cultural discussion has more fruitful results ultimately. Perhaps.

In terms of public redemption (or even private), I do believe there are always things that people want to hear that are specific to the aspects of the situation they found most offensive, that, if said, (and believed/taken as sincere) would significantly improve/reverse their negative perception... but usually not completely. But I'm not sure that's even a productive goal... What it seems to be aimed at are questions like, 'Can I have my old career back?' or 'Can I renegotiate for the same standing in my family or amongst my friends/colleagues/fans as I had before this crisis?'... as if the potential achievement of these things would be satisfying enough to motivate sincere redemptive efforts. I don't think they would because a personal crisis of this nature or at such a magnitude is never triggered inside a vacuum. The career that gets derailed and the interpersonal standings that are tarnished, and everything else that gets shuffled around after a series of events like this, are usually things that were (and are) too intertwined with the very underlying reasons for the crisis to begin with, and on some level, I think the "disgraced" person always knows this. The questions that would probably serve the disgraced person better are ones like, "Where can I go from here that would be equally or more fulfilling (on a genuine level! this is important) than where I was before the crisis?" Because THAT solution actually exists, and searching for THAT is way more likely to lead to the kind of growth and development and satisfaction that was severely absent before, than searching for a methodology that could re-write/reverse history. I mean this generally speaking, for anyone who has cornered themselves with their own missteps and misdeeds, but at the risk of seeming inelegant or insensitive to those who have been hurt by Ryan, I'm going to approach the question of what seems available to him at this point, as if that is a fair question to consider given the losses he's allegedly caused others. In Ryan's case, if he does decide that continuing to pursue a music career similar in nature to the one he's now damaged, is truly the right path for him moving forward, he won't succeed by attempting to change back the minds of this/his current fanbase and industry members, even if opportunities to make significant inroads to that end present themselves. He would succeed by confronting his issues and finding his own inner peace first, of course, and then pursuing an entirely new audience (and cohorts and friendships and collaborators...) in ways that are in alignment with that improved version of life that he's probably actually always wanted to begin with, but pursued so atrociously. (A life that I'd imagine includes less dependency and less cruelty and more compassion on everyone else's end, as well as--and especially--his own.) This approach might seem like too subtley nuanced from the one I opposed above, but I think the difference is actually quite significant. An audience that could sustain a music career for him going forward does exist (and is ever re-populating) but is invisible to him at the moment, and would always remain so using a "rehab and regain" approach. In other words, I think the best outcome, on all levels-- for him as well as those affected by him--- is only possible by looking forward, not in looking back, if that makes sense. This isn't to say that attempting to reconcile and renegotiate has no place, it's to say that tediously belaboring regrets and attempting to address all the shades of this overwhelming mess is more likely to result in more resentments and more regrets... whereas simply re-imagining a future that truly gets at the heart of what he really, purely wants (requiring quite a bit of sober introspection, of course) is probably more likely to yield the path that circumnavigates the awful/overwhelming debris from this fallout that would otherwise entrap him.

(Obviously, as you can probably surmise, I don't believe Ryan is a monster although I do believe he's done monstrous things. That's not to say I simply don't believe in monsters, because in fact, I do... I just don't think Ryan is actually one of them. I think his deviant and cruel and inexcusable behaviors are better described by the phrase 'Hurt People Hurt People', whereas true terrorists are motivated by agendas that are diabolical and utterly devoid of compassion. I may have been duped, but I believe I've seen instances of genuinely compassionate behavior from Ryan over the years. The operative word-choice here, though, is 'believe', of course.)
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:27 AM   #855
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

So you think he knew about this and that why he wrote something about no more shows ?


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Old 02-16-2019, 02:04 AM   #856
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

This might come across as a distasteful question, but it is sincere:

Has anybody given consideration to the possibility that Ryan never did come to a definite conclusion about the teenager's age, and his interest in her was not predatory but actually genuine, on the basis that despite the alarming age-gap, his probably-regularly-compromised mental state combined with his own severely-stunted maturity level, caused him to misjudge her as a peer? Or, to rephrase: Does it seem ridiculously outlandish given your former estimation of Ryan's maturity level, that he would feel a relatable connection with someone who was in their teens, and therefore mistake them as his peer?

This is not to suggest I give more weight to this possibility than the other, but it's one that I haven't seen suggested even though it seems it could make sense. I guess in honesty what I'm still trying to ascertain is whether his intent was malicious or pathetic, because for some reason I find the distinction important.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:07 AM   #857
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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This might come across as a distasteful question, but it is sincere:

Has anybody given consideration to the possibility that Ryan never did come to a definite conclusion about the teenager's age, and his interest in her was not predatory but actually genuine, on the basis that despite the alarming age-gap, his probably-regularly-compromised mental state combined with his own severely-stunted maturity level, caused him to misjudge her as a peer? Or, to rephrase: Does it seem ridiculously outlandish given your former estimation of Ryan's maturity level, that he would feel a relatable connection with someone who was in their teens, and therefore mistake them as his peer?

This is not to suggest I give more weight to this possibility than the other, but it's one that I haven't seen suggested even though it seems it could make sense. I guess in honesty what I'm still trying to ascertain is whether his intent was malicious or pathetic, because for some reason I find the distinction important.
I think pretty much all of Ryan's behavior is essentially attributable to the fact that he's deeply insecure, emotionally stunted and mentally vulnerable and can't feel confident enough to pursue a relationship with someone of his own age or level of success. But the effect of that is, ultimately, still predatory.

In a lot of ways I identify with Ryan in terms of his likely traumas and emotional and mental issues. I've dealt with many of them myself and I speculate that many others here have as well, which is why we connect with his particular brand of music.

Even if you take the absolute worst non-kiddie stories from this scandal and imagine that he did those things once or twice or three times as a young man, then realized he was a mess and was hurting people and fixed himself, my reaction would be completely different. I would reject his behaviors, but knowing that he did as well, it would be easier not to reject him.

Like you said, hurt people hurt people. Mentally ill or traumatized or insecure people end up having relationships where they fuck up to varying degrees, particularly early on in their attempts at romance. The key is that, if you're a decent person and CARE about the fact that you're hurting others, you take clear steps to change your behavior. Or, if all else fails, just isolate yourself socially so that you never hurt other people again. Controversial opinion, perhaps: but I actually have some degree of sympathy for pedophiles who live their entire lives isolating themselves from children because they RECOGNIZE their bad behavior and refuse to keep hurting others. They might not be able to fix the issue - and the issue is lamentable - but they are at least empathetic enough to say that, at the end of the day, I will learn to take any step necessary to not make my problems someone else's.

Ryan never did that. He continued to do in his thirties what he did in his twenties and then continued in his forties what he did in his thirties. If anything, it seems his behavior actually intensified and became more permissive and strategic. As much as I hate to admit it, he was not a tragic figure willing to fix himself, he was a willing addict looking for a fix.

45 years is enough time to identify your mistakes and strive for change. When you allow mistakes to become habits over the course of decades, at some point they're not mistakes anymore and - on some level - you just don't care enough about the people you've hurt to change.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:10 AM   #858
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Ha no, you are probably right. I think we can count the internet as something else he has an unhealthy relationship with.
There is no way he's not reading this coverage all the time.

I'm sure he's devastated, but I also suspect that - on some level - he is so narcissistic that he gets off on the attention.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:19 AM   #859
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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How long u all think Ryan has known this story was hanging over his head? A lot of erratic behavior lately going back a few weeks when he deleted all of his social media accounts.


I was wondering this myself. But... if you knew you had a story looming over you like this that has the ability to ruin everything youíve put out and worked for would be really have started a campaign of 3 albums this year? So much so, that albums were being pre-ordered and tours being booked and tickets being bought? Surely not?
Whatís happening with these forthcoming shows? These are literally just around the corner. Surely he canít go out on the road and play these can he? While maybe at a time like this heíd probably like to get lost on the road and think about nothing but the music surely the best thing to do would be to take a serious back step for some time?
Youíd think there would have to be some word on these shows soon huh?


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Old 02-16-2019, 03:30 AM   #860
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Can't wait to fast forward through 36 minutes of Marc croaking about coffee, cats, the state of his garage, upcoming club gigs, G chords, whatever girl he's dating, and then the inevitable lukewarm pseudo commentary on the Ryan Adams situation before Mandy speaks.


Hahaha bravo!


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Old 02-16-2019, 03:35 AM   #861
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Originally Posted by CherryRedVinyl View Post
This might come across as a distasteful question, but it is sincere:



Has anybody given consideration to the possibility that Ryan never did come to a definite conclusion about the teenager's age, and his interest in her was not predatory but actually genuine, on the basis that despite the alarming age-gap, his probably-regularly-compromised mental state combined with his own severely-stunted maturity level, caused him to misjudge her as a peer? Or, to rephrase: Does it seem ridiculously outlandish given your former estimation of Ryan's maturity level, that he would feel a relatable connection with someone who was in their teens, and therefore mistake them as his peer?



This is not to suggest I give more weight to this possibility than the other, but it's one that I haven't seen suggested even though it seems it could make sense. I guess in honesty what I'm still trying to ascertain is whether his intent was malicious or pathetic, because for some reason I find the distinction important.


Well not just Ryan. Men like them young. So I donít know why. So Maybe.
He has been dating 20 y/o girls since he was 20 himself and a lot of known rockstars keep doing it so with age gaps way bigger than this.

Iím in my 30s and I just canít find myself attracted to someone in their 20s (I can see a young guy and think that he is attractive but I just canít think of them in a sexual way).

Iíve been trying to state this before. A lot of people had highlighted the fact that Ryan is notoriously immature, dealing with mental issues and so on. But what about ďnormalĒ successful men doing that?
Iíve always questioning the fact that one day the relation can be ilegal and the next day donít. Like if turning years will immediately comes with maturity enough to deal with everything. The age gap (legal or not) in my opinion is disgusting not only for Ryanís but for all the other men out there.

On the other hand I see that these girls decided to stay by his side for fame and help and even though seeing him playing with power like this is also disgusting again heís not te only one doing and I would love to see the same support for anonymous women out there. I said I was abused like this by a company related with Live Nation (my boss had a direct relation with Perry Pharrell) and no one said they wonít go to live nationís concerts anymore. So I would love to see some coherence here. You of course dont need to.have to care about all these power abuse but donít try to act like you do.



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Old 02-16-2019, 03:43 AM   #862
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

^ Well, it's not really a mystery. Men are biologically designed to be drawn to fertility, which is completely tied to youth. Women are biologically drawn to strength and stability, which often results in younger women desiring older men in the same way older men desire younger women. Obviously culture dictates some of this, but much of existing culture is an extension of the general history of western culture, which is largely predicated on certain biological truths. I do think there are many men who differentiate between sexual proclivities (which are consistent with the above) and relationship preferences, which might skew more toward someone who's intellectually and emotionally mature. The telling thing about Ryan is that he wasn't just looking to sleep with young women, he seemingly wanted relationships with them and was very emotionally invested in those relationships. These weren't trophy wives he slept with while engaging intellectually with forty year old women, they were the people in whom he could see not only a sexual but mental and emotional match.

In general, I think it often goes both ways. I know plenty of women who will ONLY date older men, many of whom like them significantly (8-10 years) older.

Personally, as a man, I have never been attracted to women younger than myself and can't even imagine being attracted to someone more than two years younger than I am. I have worked at universities for much of my life and am surrounded by young women. Like yourself, I can objectively look at 20 year olds and say "well, she's pretty," but I literally feel no attraction to any of them and can't imagine dating them or touching them. Oddly, most of my female friends make fun of me for this and think it's weird. I often lament not having kids and they'll basically offer to hook me up with women in their late twenties, which is still too young for me. Even knowing that I'm unlikely to ever find someone of my own age capable/interested in having children, I just can't bring myself to consider younger. So, anyway, it's not all of us.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:26 AM   #863
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Ryanís Instagram it seems to be gaining fans .... this is strange .


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Old 02-16-2019, 05:48 AM   #864
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread



https://twitter.com/resistance_mary/...73671288123392
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:23 AM   #865
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

In case anyone is here by accident: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/15/enter...ams/index.html
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:10 AM   #866
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

haha poor bryan... he must've seen a few 'dude, wtf?' frowns the past days...
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:10 AM   #867
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Ryan’s Instagram it seems to be gaining fans .... this is strange .


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While his Twitter is losing a lot of followers. Interesting dynamic.

I've watched the list of people he's following on Twitter drop, too. Unless people are blocking him, he's unfollowing. So he's on there.

Mandy's appearance on WTF was definitely planned to align with this news. Guarantee that the article was in the works for months, too.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:21 AM   #868
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

iím thinking so too. it would seem the NYT reached out at some point after the Cornell tribute thus spurring some of his behavior.

I remember on Toddís instagram story he once commented that he hadnít been informed of the UK tour and Ryanís twitter post was the first he heard. Seems like it was all thrown together, maybe partly in reaction to the story


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Old 02-16-2019, 08:14 AM   #869
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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i’m thinking so too. it would seem the NYT reached out at some point after the Cornell tribute thus spurring some of his behavior.

I remember on Todd’s instagram story he once commented that he hadn’t been informed of the UK tour and Ryan’s twitter post was the first he heard. Seems like it was all thrown together, maybe partly in reaction to the story


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Now that you mention it, I thought it was strange that they were teasing the US dates so much but never announcing them. I wonder if they caught wind of this and waited to see what happened before putting it into motion? Since they probably didn’t want another mess to have to cancel/refund. I don’t know how these timelines work, but I thought they were taking forever on the US dates which were likely taking place this summer.

Also, I thought it was strange how they so quicky announced his first two albums but not the third. I assumed because he was still working on the third. But maybe they had decided not to put more $ into things at that point while they waited for this to come out. In other words, I wonder if they got word of this story right after the big press push for the first two albums.

Crazy thing is, I felt like this was the most promotion his label had done for a record yet. Especially with all the news personalities involved in the promotion. Looking back it does seem like it abruptly stopped.
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Old 02-16-2019, 08:36 AM   #870
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Lots of new people checking him out on Spotify, noticed his monthly listeners jumped way up (because, yes, I'm still listening to him).
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Old 02-16-2019, 08:59 AM   #871
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

His manager unfollowed him on social media.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:33 AM   #872
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

I want to know something. I mean it; if you can explain the psychology behind it, I want to know the psychology behind it. Not addressing the underage thing, why didn't the other adult women claiming he dangled music opportunities just walk away? Is it because they put up with him because they'd get something out if it (professionally)? I think that played a big part. Because it doesn't sound like he sits there and patiently waits to make a move. They even illustrated over and over how impulsive he is. This is not a situation of like, a boss approaching his secretary and threatening to fire her if she didn't give him favors. Or taking advantage because he's the boss. I'm sorry but it's not. Ruining their career maybe? But could he, really? With the reputation he had for his lash outs and antics? Being a jerk isn't being an insidious mastermind. I think the fact they were getting something out of it and chose not to walk is just as important to address in these Hollywood and music biz me too things that not enough people are addressing. Fuck infantilism of women, as a woman myself. They wanted something out of him and they put up with his come ons and shit to get it. Yes that means something. Who the fuck is scared of Ryan Adams? No one! I'm waiting patiently on the FBI investigation now.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:01 AM   #873
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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. This is not a situation of like, a boss approaching his secretary and threatening to fire her if she didn't give him favors. Or taking advantage because he's the boss. I'm sorry but it's not. Ruining their career maybe? But could he, really? With the reputation he had for his lash outs and antics? Being a jerk isn't being an insidious mastermind. I think the fact they were getting something out of it and chose not to walk is just as important to address in these Hollywood and music biz me too things that not enough people are addressing. Fuck infantilism of women, as a woman myself. They wanted something out of him and they put up with his come ons and shit to get it. Yes that means something. Who the fuck is scared of Ryan Adams? No one! I'm waiting patiently on the FBI investigation now.
You can't say that, but you're right. And I would push back and say maybe many of them were scared of Ryan Adams. Now doubt, he could potentially seem important and powerful to a young artist and, judging by his behavior with the Cardinology artist (whose name I keep forgetting), he could also be threatening and stalkerish in a way that would very legitimately provoke fear. However, I fundamentally agree that too many very significant details of these things are overlooked because we've established labels for things and want to sort everything into boxes. There's no room for situation by situation analysis where the individual dynamics are examined. Even within the instances presented in this case, I think there is a fairly broad range of severity ranging from "Ryan sure acts like an asshole and is a terrible boyfriend" to "Ryan sounds like a sexual predator" But because now we have a label for him and his behavior, everything must be seen through the same lens of retroactive judgment.

Now, ultimately, sorting through those deviations is a purely intellectual exercise, since one or two that cross over into legitimate deviance is more than enough to warrant a condemnation. However, I am personally bothered by the tendency to ignore the facts or dynamics of each particular account in service of comprehensive, pre-established moral conclusions. It's fundamentally dishonest and unfair and trains us to suspend reason for emotional and moral absolutism, which is inherently dangerous.

I agree that maybe the worst part of all this has been the infantilization of women and notion that women can't stand up for themselves or make determinations or character analyses in situations with other adults. Which seems, from my admittedly distant observational perch as a male, to be antithetical to feminism and starkly at odds with the refrains of female autonomy and strength we are rightly urged to embrace. Fear and insecurity and confusion are emotions that influence behavior and result in poor decisions. But we do not excuse the actions of men on these same fronts and instead assign to their behaviors an objectivity and logic than enables more absolute condemnation. If men are to be capable of shutting off emotion and panic and fear and insecurity and anxiety and love in order to act rationally and properly always, then a society that truly believes in the capacity of women to be equal must expect them to be capable of the same. Otherwise we reaffirm one of the oldest and most dangerous stereotypes about women even as we seek to abolish it.

If a person has no direct power over you in terms of a contract or established position in a professional hierarchy and if that person is incapable, as Ryan is, of so controlling the tides of professional opinion that your career would be inevitably destroyed if you were to deny him/her, then you have a choice whether to interact with them. If you are not employed by this person and could not be fired or denied promotion, you are engaging in freelance partnerships and making a measured, case by case determination of risk/value. You are also looking for help, not fairness. And no one is obligated to provide that to you for free or for anything else. If help is proffered and comes with a price, respect yourself over your profession and walk away.

Perhaps one issue here is that we are a culture so obsessed with work and career and success that it's easy to view our emotional and sexual and mental health as less important than the realization of our professional goals. Men do this too and are willing to throw away everything that truly matters for status or success. Maybe if we emphasized identities outside of our work, we would be less willing to endanger ourselves in pursuit of professional goals and we would disempower those who seek to damage others by leveraging the golden ticket of professional validation.

Since I'll be taken to task for this post, Ryan is still a complete predatory asshole, as I have stated many times above. In many cases, he sounds like a sexual deviant. He may well be a stalker of underage girls. But it's not bad to try to empower women to not repeatedly entertain the behaviors of these sorts of people. Many people have referenced their daughters and how they see them in these cases and I am most certain that that is true. However, if you and your child happened to witness another child walking up to an angry dog and repeatedly sticking his/her fingers through cage fencing to be bitten and bitten again, you wouldn't simply pity the child, you would also use it as an opportunity to instruct your own to never, ever, ever behave in a way that opens themself up to similar damage. No matter how interesting the dog, no matter how great the temptation. This lesson is not being communicated to our children, because we are so intent on emphasizing the legitimacy of vulnerability that we do not highlight the necessity of strength. If I had a daughter, I'd be scared of dudes like Ryan Adams...but I'd be scared of that dynamic, too.

I'm glad a woman said that first.

Last edited by SonofabitchVanOwen; 02-16-2019 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:24 AM   #874
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo812 View Post
iím thinking so too. it would seem the NYT reached out at some point after the Cornell tribute thus spurring some of his behavior.

I remember on Toddís instagram story he once commented that he hadnít been informed of the UK tour and Ryanís twitter post was the first he heard. Seems like it was all thrown together, maybe partly in reaction to the story


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It is so bizarre to me that you would hear something like this was going to break and react by...scheduling a tour!

I would like some sort of flowchart of how Ryan's mind works.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:25 AM   #875
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

I’m guessing he thought he would cash in while he could. Or maybe dumping albums and tour dates on the fans would win him good will. Remember it’s all about manipulation.
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