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Old 02-26-2019, 12:14 PM   #1
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What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

Doesn't really move the needle, but its an interesting perspective. Glad shops and buyers are thinking a bit more about buying power and toxic figures.

https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/what-...record-stores/
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Old 02-26-2019, 12:34 PM   #2
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

I'd be more interested in the costs associated with pressing all of those different editions of colored vinyl. They had to already be at the plant by the time the story broke, and the label took a huge hit.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:06 PM   #3
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

I think if record stores REALLY have a conscience about this kind of stuff, they need to pull it all, or leave Ryanís records in there. Otherwise, theyíre just posturing and deserve to be called out. Thatís just how I view it.

Ryan Adams a fucking tool who mistreated people, but theyíve always carried his records before. Itís hypocritical to remove one and not another because it could be bad for business.

This shit is what makes me want to puke about this whole ďwokeĒ movement. I want to puke at that term I just used. I want to puke at all the bullshit reporting going on in the wake of the NYT piece. Just be nice and do things right.

Donít treat each other poorly. Is it really that fucking hard?
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:08 PM   #4
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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I'd be more interested in the costs associated with pressing all of those different editions of colored vinyl. They had to already be at the plant by the time the story broke, and the label took a huge hit.
I donít know if they got to that point yet. And even if they pressed some, Iím sure they have plans to release it at some point. So they can sit on them.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:11 PM   #5
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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I think if record stores REALLY have a conscience about this kind of stuff, they need to pull it all, or leave Ryanís records in there. Otherwise, theyíre just posturing and deserve to be called out. Thatís just how I view it.

Ryan Adams a fucking tool who mistreated people, but theyíve always carried his records before. Itís hypocritical to remove one and not another because it could be bad for business.

This shit is what makes me want to puke about this whole ďwokeĒ movement. I want to puke at that term I just used. I want to puke at all the bullshit reporting going on in the wake of the NYT piece. Just be nice and do things right.

Donít treat each other poorly. Is it really that fucking hard?
Who are you taking issue with here? Abusers? ďWokeĒ folk? Record stores who pose woke? Who is supposed to be nice?
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:19 PM   #6
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Who are you taking issue with here? Abusers? “Woke” folk? Record stores who pose woke? Who is supposed to be nice?
Everyone. We’re all supposed to be nice.

Woke folk annoy me, but I get it.

Record stores can stock whatever they want, but they shouldn’t act so high and mighty if they carry John Lennon and not Ryan Adams. And I fucking love John Lennon’s music.

And Stories like this one by Pitchfork are kinda pathetic.

Do you think I’m wrong here Tim? You all “woke” and offended?

And abusers is an easy one. Get em outta here.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:25 PM   #7
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

Not offended but wanted clarification.

I think it’s all a learning curve. Yeah RA May get pulled and not Led Zeppelin, but things change over time and people may start to care. I 100% agree that people should strive to be kinder. That being said, it’s not unfair if it starts with pulling RA Records vs others. But I think the fact that stores now have to wrestle with how to deal with that is a true issue. It will be interesting where it goes.


The other reason I asked for clarification is you seem to take issue with wokeness, but the whole drive of wokeness is for people to be kinder and fairer to others and to recognize the field is not level due to unkindness. Yes, woke responses can be toxic too, but that’s probably due to that persons lack of self awareness.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:36 PM   #8
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

This is such a slippery slope...if we knew the personal lives and 'real' versions of most artists, record stores would have half the inventory they do now. Like the article mentioned...what do you do with Phil Spector-related albums? He was convicted of murder.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:40 PM   #9
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Not offended but wanted clarification.

I think it’s all a learning curve. Yeah RA May get pulled and not Led Zeppelin, but things change over time and people may start to care. I 100% agree that people should strive to be kinder. That being said, it’s not unfair if it starts with pulling RA Records vs others. But I think the fact that stores now have to wrestle with how to deal with that is a true issue. It will be interesting where it goes.


The other reason I asked for clarification is you seem to take issue with wokeness, but the whole drive of wokeness is for people to be kinder and fairer to others and to recognize the field is not level due to unkindness. Yes, woke responses can be toxic too, but that’s probably due to that persons lack of self awareness.
Good points. My issue with the woke movement is that we shouldn’t need to wake up. I also think it becomes commercialized and therefore useless. Some of the articles that have come out since this story broke seem to be far reaching and most likely for clicks, and therefore $$$.

It just defeats the purpose.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:56 PM   #10
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
I donít know if they got to that point yet. And even if they pressed some, Iím sure they have plans to release it at some point. So they can sit on them.
There are so few record pressing plants that I guarantee they were already in production. It takes months to go through the process. And now they'll either face destruction or storage costs for all of that product.
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Old 02-26-2019, 01:59 PM   #11
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by SweetBlackMagic View Post
This is such a slippery slope...if we knew the personal lives and 'real' versions of most artists, record stores would have half the inventory they do now. Like the article mentioned...what do you do with Phil Spector-related albums? He was convicted of murder.
This ^^^^

I mean where do you draw the line? There are plenty artists accused/convicted of crimes or terrible acts or just being terrible people. I can see a label not wanting to go through with an album they were about to release and heavily promote in light of allegations, but to expect retailers to erase all of someoneís past work seems like a huge and unnecessary undertaking. I think at that point itís just up to the consumer to decide what they want to buy. If the demand doesnít keep up the supply will go down and it will work itself out.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:03 PM   #12
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

My issue with the woke movement is that people believe that you can find a particular label that, when affixed, makes you right by definition. There are components of "woke" philosophy that are inherently positive and forward looking, but there are also too many people who believe that - by they identifying as woke or marshaling an opinion inaugurated by someone who IS woke - they can (and should) proactively undermine all criticism, evaluation, or reasoned objection to their opinion. And that, if the latter comes, those dissenting voices must speak from a place of being non-woke rather than simply articulate reasonable critical engagement with what is being asserted in the first place.

I think it also becomes very easy to be a shitty person in small ways once you arrive at the overarching conclusion that you are morally righteous by virtue of your in-group. Look how many pieces of pettiness and intolerance CERTAIN religious people will accommodate in their own lives while still believing themselves to be good people on the basis of their faith. This happens with woke people, too. They often allow themselves to be judgmental and critical and intolerant of other people or perspectives because they no longer assess their own moral value on a day to day basis, but rather on the basis of an overriding label they have chosen to adopt. And, because adherence to the most explicit tenets of their personal philosophy uphold their in-group status AND sense of self-righteousness, they are all the more intolerant of any opinion that challenges or seeks to clarify in those areas.

I have been guilty of this plenty of times in the past and it's taught me lessons. I grew up around women and have primarily female friends and family, so I always thought I was a women's advocate by default. I think in past interactions, I've been able to be thoughtless and inconsiderate with romantic partners precisely BECAUSE my own preconceptions about myself prevented me from critically examining my own behavior as I should have. True, I was never actively thoughtless or mean spirited and not once did I consciously plan to hurt or disappoint a partner. But, I was cruel because of what I didn't do. "I don't need to prepare for this conversation because, after all, I get women and I'll know what to do." Had I been more humble and thought of myself objectively on an action-by-action basis rather than reclining comfortably in my ready made, morally superior label, I would've ACTUALLY been the person I thought I already was. I think this is commonly true with woke people.

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Old 02-26-2019, 02:12 PM   #13
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by delvis View Post
Good points. My issue with the woke movement is that we shouldnít need to wake up. I also think it becomes commercialized and therefore useless. Some of the articles that have come out since this story broke seem to be far reaching and most likely for clicks, and therefore $$$.

It just defeats the purpose.
Definitely alot of clickbait.


That being said, I think there alot of topics we could "wake up" about. I don't know who coined the term. I'm indifferent to it. It is what it is. The drive of the movement is something that I can get behind, even if I think some practitioners can get too militant about it.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:14 PM   #14
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

I'm so glad I don't care enough to know what "woke" is, seems like there are new words invented every day and I gave up on trying to keep up with social movements long ago. I just try to be the best person I can be, and if that's not enough for people, that's life I guess.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:16 PM   #15
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by SweetBlackMagic View Post
This is such a slippery slope...if we knew the personal lives and 'real' versions of most artists, record stores would have half the inventory they do now. Like the article mentioned...what do you do with Phil Spector-related albums? He was convicted of murder.
I think the general line people are taking is, if the artist is dead, let sleeping dogs lie, but by all means tell their complete story.

I think 1 member of abd doing wrong, also can't really hurt the whole band unless they were complicit. thats why you don't see a ton of pushback on the Beatles or Zeppelin or the Kinks.

Spector is a tricky situation, but at the end of the day, he was the writer/producer. The artists who recorded his works were the true talent and they shouldn't be punished.

But again, its an evolving POV and time may change how we deal with these artists. So maybe people will be unhappy if they guy get "cancelled", but such is the will of time and perspective.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:18 PM   #16
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by SonofabitchVanOwen View Post
My issue with the woke movement is that people believe that you can find a particular label that, when affixed, makes you right by definition. There are components of "woke" philosophy that are inherently positive and forward looking, but there are also too many people who believe that - by they identifying as woke or marshaling an opinion inaugurated by someone who IS woke - they can (and should) proactively undermine all criticism, evaluation, or reasoned objection to their opinion. And that, if the latter comes, those dissenting voices must speak from a place of being non-woke rather than simply articulate reasonable critical engagement with what is being asserted in the first place.

I think it also becomes very easy to be a shitty person in small ways once you arrive at the overarching conclusion that you are morally righteous by virtue of your in-group. Look how many pieces of pettiness and intolerance CERTAIN religious people will accommodate in their own lives while still believing themselves to be good people on the basis of their faith. This happens with woke people, too. They often allow themselves to be judgmental and critical and intolerant of other people or perspectives because they no longer assess their own moral value on a day to day basis, but rather on the basis of an overriding label they have chosen to adopt. And, because adherence to the most explicit tenets of their personal philosophy uphold their in-group status AND sense of self-righteousness, they are all the more intolerant of any opinion that challenges or seeks to clarify in those areas.

I have been guilty of this plenty of times in the past and it's taught me lessons. I grew up around women and have primarily female friends and family, so I always thought I was a women's advocate by default. I think in past interactions, I've been able to be thoughtless and inconsiderate with romantic partners precisely BECAUSE my own preconceptions about myself prevented me from critically examining my own behavior as I should have. True, I was never actively thoughtless or mean spirited and not once did I consciously plan to hurt or disappoint a partner. But, I was cruel because of what I didn't do. "I don't need to prepare for this conversation because, after all, I get women and I'll know what to do." Had I been more humble and thought of myself objectively on an action-by-action basis rather than reclining comfortably in my ready made, morally superior label, I would've ACTUALLY been the person I thought I already was. I think this is commonly true with woke people.

You aced this post. Youíve articulated here what I was trying to get at without a full on explanation.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:20 PM   #17
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

Shitting on people who fuck up and potentially throwing them in jail is a a reason to love this country.

"Cancelling" art because the person who made it is a bad guy is, in all seriousness, something I'd consider leaving the country over if it got too extreme.

I'm not willing to sacrifice the work of the brightest minds and most original thinkers of this or any generation in the hopes of establishing some utopian society that is, beyond being utterly impossible, also completely inconsistent with the complexity of human beings in the first place.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:26 PM   #18
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

I’m not willing to promote people who are truly awful even if they make great art. There’s lots of people out there who make great art and are hungry for attention. We should support those people.

The slippery slope is a risk, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a guarantee. Pumping the breaks on cleaning up toxic behavior just because we’re afraid of long term extreme change that isn't guaranteed isn’t the best course for short term change either.

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Old 02-26-2019, 02:28 PM   #19
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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I'm not willing to sacrifice the work of the brightest minds and most original thinkers of this or any generation in the hopes of establishing some utopian society that is, beyond being utterly impossible, also completely inconsistent with the complexity of human beings in the first place.
Wait, are we still talking about Ryan Adams?
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:33 PM   #20
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What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

Funny, I nearly posted here about how ďwokeĒ the article in Pitchfork was. Also cringed that I thought of using the term too. But itís fitting.

The article is shit. Pitchfork clutching at ways of milking the Ryan Adams scandal while it still has legs in the news. Itís what news organisations do. I get it, itís been a just over a week and we havenít moved on yet. But itís lazy reporting with little substance, on a question that no one actually asked. Pitchfork hate Ryan so of course theyíll find an angle to keep piling it on. Click bait.

I donít mind if stores pull Ryan from their shelves for a period of time. Ryan deserves at least some symbolic gesture that says itís not ok to emotionally abuse people. He might get stung too. Stores will carry him again eventually.

Those who are walking away from his music, selling it etc, Iím sure some of them will return, eventually. People donít want want to be seen as moving on too soon.

Iíve been thinking about this in light of the Royal Commission into systemic abuse in the Catholic Church and the George Pell conviction that has been in the news in Australia over the last 24hrs. The man is now a convicted pedophile along with others identified during the royal commission. Iím always surprised when I hear Catholics will likely still continue to keep their faith in light of this. Not to mention remain OK with the misogynistic structures that still remain in the church.

Everyone has their own moral compass. Iíll continue to listen to Ryan. Maybe a bit less for the time being. I wouldnít be woke if I did. Iíd walk away from the church if I were religious though.


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Old 02-26-2019, 03:16 PM   #21
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

Truthfully, I don't think the album cancelled/cancelled...

There's good points here: stores have stocked albums by pedophiles, car thieves, murderers, etc. I don't think blackballing morally bankrupt artists will become the norm.

With Ryan, the timing is just really really bad. The label and stores have dodged a financial bullet by not putting it out now. Many independent stores will choose not to order. Online sales could be low if fans are upset. Stores don't want to run the risk of paying for unsold stock.

To be truthful the album pull is more about financial damage control. Universal is probably in "wait and see" mode. If they drop him, I wonder if PAX*AM will actually go "indie" and put it out without Universal's muscle.

Say for example, this thing ends up blowing over somehow... there might be an optimal time to put it out, from a marketers prospective. Albums have been delayed 6 months when a competing album is release in too close a time frame.

I'm not trying to lesson the ethical reasons for pulling the album, but I think it's a timing and monetary issue for Universal.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:25 PM   #22
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Truthfully, I don't think the album cancelled/cancelled...

There's good points here: stores have stocked albums by pedophiles, car thieves, murderers, etc. I don't think blackballing morally bankrupt artists will become the norm.

With Ryan, the timing is just really really bad. The label and stores have dodged a financial bullet by not putting it out now. Many independent stores will choose not to order. Online sales could be low if fans are upset. Stores don't want to run the risk of paying for unsold stock.

To be truthful the album pull is more about financial damage control. Universal is probably in "wait and see" mode. If they drop him, I wonder if PAX*AM will actually go "indie" and put it out without Universal's muscle.

Say for example, this thing ends up blowing over somehow... there might be an optimal time to put it out, from a marketers prospective. Albums have been delayed 6 months when a competing album is release in too close a time frame.

I'm not trying to lesson the ethical reasons for pulling the album, but I think it's a timing and monetary issue for Universal.
Great comment.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:43 PM   #23
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by GoodSkanky View Post
Truthfully, I don't think the album cancelled/cancelled...

There's good points here: stores have stocked albums by pedophiles, car thieves, murderers, etc. I don't think blackballing morally bankrupt artists will become the norm.

With Ryan, the timing is just really really bad. The label and stores have dodged a financial bullet by not putting it out now. Many independent stores will choose not to order. Online sales could be low if fans are upset. Stores don't want to run the risk of paying for unsold stock.

To be truthful the album pull is more about financial damage control. Universal is probably in "wait and see" mode. If they drop him, I wonder if PAX*AM will actually go "indie" and put it out without Universal's muscle.

Say for example, this thing ends up blowing over somehow... there might be an optimal time to put it out, from a marketers prospective. Albums have been delayed 6 months when a competing album is release in too close a time frame.

I'm not trying to lesson the ethical reasons for pulling the album, but I think it's a timing and monetary issue for Universal.
Sure, they haven't outright canceled "Big Colors", and nothing has been said about "Wednesdays" and the third album. So they definitely are waiting to see how things unfold. But they've also sunk a good chunk into production, and depending on the language of the contract, Ryan would have to pay back his original license fee and possibly the cost of the albums if he tried to go elsewhere. I don't think people fully understand the financial implications of this situation. He might not be able to do it.

Furthermore, his albums, while under the Blue Note/Capitol imprint, were being distributed by Caroline, which is the largest indie distributor and is owned by...Universal. So that could severely limit his options should he try to place it elsewhere. And he's still going to face a backlash whenever he decides to reappear. His core fanbase may cool off, but he still has to face the media and general public.
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:35 PM   #24
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

The only further Wild Card is how much material Ryan has sat on over the years. If he gets a fresh start recording, he might very well do a new record and these will be in the Blackhole, scrapped Glyn Johns, file.
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Old 02-26-2019, 10:11 PM   #25
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Re: What does a cancelled Ryan Adams album mean for record stores.

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Originally Posted by folkjam View Post
Sure, they haven't outright canceled "Big Colors", and nothing has been said about "Wednesdays" and the third album. So they definitely are waiting to see how things unfold. But they've also sunk a good chunk into production, and depending on the language of the contract, Ryan would have to pay back his original license fee and possibly the cost of the albums if he tried to go elsewhere. I don't think people fully understand the financial implications of this situation. He might not be able to do it.

Furthermore, his albums, while under the Blue Note/Capitol imprint, were being distributed by Caroline, which is the largest indie distributor and is owned by...Universal. So that could severely limit his options should he try to place it elsewhere. And he's still going to face a backlash whenever he decides to reappear. His core fanbase may cool off, but he still has to face the media and general public.
Isn't he worth like 12 million or something like that? I can't imagine it would cost anywhere near that to buy back the rights, and then the profit he would make from the sales of the albums would probably let him come out close to even.
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