Ryan Adams, abuse, the Stans, and people who believe no apology is good enough

[Bart]

[folkjam]

https://twitter.com/soda_speaks/stat...20019332734976

[TheHappiness]

He apologized. His career will never be the same.


But of course, those who want to never hear from him again are always going to claim the apology wasn’t ‘good enough.’

[Loveishello86]

Originally Posted by folkjam

https://twitter.com/soda_speaks/stat...20019332734976

who is kelsey kerrigan?

[Dan33185]

Originally Posted by TheHappiness

He apologized. His career will never be the same.


But of course, those who want to never hear from him again are always going to claim the apology wasn’t ‘good enough.’

I can think of a few of them here.

[andyo812]

Originally Posted by Dan33185

I can think of a few of them here.

who said they never wanted to hear from him again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[folkjam]

Originally Posted by Loveishello86

who is kelsey kerrigan?

Another one of the musicians he mentored.

[FavoriteEver]

Originally Posted by SonofabitchVanOwen

Here's the thing. It's going to be about him. It has to be. People have this idea that you somehow get better/reflect/change by completely eschewing any sort of emphasis on yourself and your feelings, when the opposite is true. Literally the only way to improve yourself is to start from how you felt and what you're going through, figure out how those feelings and experiences manifested in bad behavior toward others and then try to figure out your own shit so that it never triggers said bad behavior again. As someone who has diagnosed mental health issues and has been through this process, there's no other way. Otherwise, you're just saying what you're supposed to say, but not actually getting to the crux of your behaviors. You can know something is wrong and, if you don't get into your own feelings, you'll never fix it; the reasons we do the shit we do are always living in the uncomfortable ways in which we see and have experienced the world. Try to go into any therapist's office and talk about mistakes by saying "I was wrong/that person was wronged by me/I am sorry" and they will tell you that's a good start, but will demand you start talking MORE about yourself.

It's just not good PR or considerate to mention any of that publicly. You want to validate the experience of people who might've been hurt and tuck your own experiences and reasons away for private reflection. It makes you look selfish and insensitive to get into your own weaknesses that publicly.

I don't think what Ryan doesn't "get" is that he needs to improve, I think what Ryan doesn't get is how he can talk about that improvement in a very exacting public space in which his words and the sensitivity thereof will be picked apart with a fine tooth comb. I also think it's very probable that he hasn't gotten very far in that process. What's he explaining actually makes sense from a genuine process of self improvement, but saying it out load is going to get him in trouble.

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with some of it. Yeah, to start to heal and progress you have to dive into yourself and think about what made you the way you are. He gives examples here - all of which only occured within the last 8-ish years. He's been doing this much longer than that. I'm sorry, but if this is progress, it's the tiniest amount. And even then, it seems more like an attempt at a pity grab.

[JackStark211]

If you don’t like him, just go somewhere else. I don’t understand the arguing in this thread.

I have always thought him an asshole, but I’ve always liked his music.

[FavoriteEver]

I love his music, I'm just not singing a redemption song for the guy like others.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally Posted by Bart

How sweet. I certainly found Jason's enthusiastic harassment of Mandy Moore, Phoebe Bridgers and others beautiful. Every time he called one of them a slut or a golddigger or a liar; the world got just a little bit more lovely. Even multiple (and apparently pointless) Twitter bans couldn't deter him from offering all that love and support. Quite a guy.

[futurecalling]

Matt Mondanile (exiled from Real Estate for sexual misconduct) liked his apology post, lol.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally Posted by futurecalling

Matt Mondanile (exiled from Real Estate for sexual misconduct) liked his apology post, lol.

Ha, Ryan must be so grateful for all this terrific support.

[hi_there]

the former manager is back to posting about toxic narcissism in her story today.

[TheHappiness]

Originally Posted by Sydneyfan

How sweet. I certainly found Jason's enthusiastic harassment of Mandy Moore, Phoebe Bridgers and others beautiful. Every time he called one of them a slut or a golddigger or a liar; the world got just a little bit more lovely. Even multiple (and apparently pointless) Twitter bans couldn't deter him from offering all that love and support. Quite a guy.

Harassment of mandy Moore?

Jeez... bunch of snowflakes.

Ryan was definitely guilty of being so self absorbed in his career that he didn’t make time to help hers...

And did Phoebe Bridgers date Ryan against her will?

Jeez.. Ryan definitely wasn’t cool, but being a shitty partner—-which partly means making false promises and not following through—-isn’t a crime.


Quit looking at women as if they don’t have free will, and men as if when they’re not the perfect husband, boyfriend, career move, then it’s #metoo

[CherryRedVinyl]

after you’ve mistreated someone, making the acknowlegement that you’re “flawed” and human, is disarming, and often quite effective towards regaining a sense of good standing and goodwill.

the thing is, there are some types who would arrive there after a period of genuine soul-searching, self-reflection, and a compassionate assessment of how they’ve shown up in the experience of the person/people they’ve hurt; there are other types who would arrive there because they’re able to recognize its remarkable effectiveness to the desired end of a quick reconciliation; a mainline back to goodwill that doesn’t really require the work that would lead to new insights, empathy, expanded levels of compassion, or deeper understandings of someone else’s experience.

because the weight of certain words can be *so* disarming and appealing to the humanity in compassionate-types, it is very difficult to distinguish between the sincere version of those sorts of statements, and the manipulative version. and adding an extra layer of trickiness to this dynamic is the fact that (clinical) narcissist types often aren’t even able to recognize the manipulative intentions underlying their own actions/words, as manipulative. it’s the right thing to say, afterall, and they’ve said the right thing; why is there still a problem?! they have good and loving intentions always except for when they do not!

i don’t know which category ryan’s latest statements fall under. i do recognize his statements, though, because they’ve been said by him so many times in the past.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally Posted by TheHappiness

Harassment of mandy Moore?

Jeez... bunch of snowflakes.

Ryan was definitely guilty of being so self absorbed in his career that he didn’t make time to help hers...

And did Phoebe Bridgers date Ryan against her will?

Jeez.. Ryan definitely wasn’t cool, but being a shitty partner—-which partly means making false promises and not following through—-isn’t a crime.


Quit looking at women as if they don’t have free will, and men as if when they’re not the perfect husband, boyfriend, career move, then it’s #metoo

What does any of that have to do with what I was talking about?

[CherryRedVinyl]

Originally Posted by dtuck90

He’s saying what he thinks the Superfans want to hear. And they will lap it up.

If his recent poetic, moving, inspiring, and endearing statements are in fact more strategic than heart-felt, I would imagine their intended audience is moreso industry-gatekeepers than super fans. He won't work again in the capacity he desires unless he can regain the confidence and support of the wiiiide network of industry-related organizations that, in this socio-political/cultural climate, would be terrified to so much as sneeze in his direction. Simply from a business standpoint, imagine the cost/benefit rundowns that would have to factor in the severe PR headaches and insurance premiums required to support him now. An incredible liability when the game being played hinges on "vibe-ing on-trend"-- socio-politically & culturally speaking-- and you're currently an emphatic counter-representation of that.

[Js22]

Bring on the tunes.

[Dan33185]

Originally Posted by Js22

Bring on the tunes.

Kind of my thought as well. If I worried about the personal life of every musician I listened to and if they were a "good person" (whatever that means anymore), I'd be listening to Pat Boone and Don Williams all day. Would I prefer my favorite musicians be honorable and without flaw? Sure, but I know that's not going to happen, so I learn to separate the musician from the music. I think a lot of people would be shocked to find out what their favorite musicians are really like if they knew them personally.

[Tim Simmons]

Originally Posted by futurecalling

Matt Mondanile (exiled from Real Estate for sexual misconduct) liked his apology post, lol.

You love to see it

[TheHappiness]

Originally Posted by CherryRedVinyl

after you’ve mistreated someone, making the acknowlegement that you’re “flawed” and human, is disarming, and often quite effective towards regaining a sense of good standing and goodwill.

the thing is, there are some types who would arrive there after a period of genuine soul-searching, self-reflection, and a compassionate assessment of how they’ve shown up in the experience of the person/people they’ve hurt; there are other types who would arrive there because they’re able to recognize its remarkable effectiveness to the desired end of a quick reconciliation; a mainline back to goodwill that doesn’t really require the work that would lead to new insights, empathy, expanded levels of compassion, or deeper understandings of someone else’s experience.

because the weight of certain words can be *so* disarming and appealing to the humanity in compassionate-types, it is very difficult to distinguish between the sincere version of those sorts of statements, and the manipulative version. and adding an extra layer of trickiness to this dynamic is the fact that (clinical) narcissist types often aren’t even able to recognize the manipulative intentions underlying their own actions/words, as manipulative. it’s the right thing to say, afterall, and they’ve said the right thing; why is there still a problem?! they have good and loving intentions always except for when they do not!

i don’t know which category ryan’s latest statements fall under. i do recognize his statements, though, because they’ve been said by him so many times in the past.

Nearly every apology can be taken as sincere or insincere, depending on how one WANTS to see it.

Forgive him or not, I thought Louis CKs apology was great. But to some, it had a million holes in it.

Whatever...

[CherryRedVinyl]

Originally Posted by TheHappiness

Nearly every apology can be taken as sincere or insincere, depending on how one WANTS to see it.

Forgive him or not, I thought Louis CKs apology was great. But to some, it had a million holes in it.

Whatever...

Do *you* think Ryan's recent post on Instagram was completely sincere?

[Tim Simmons]

Originally Posted by TheHappiness

Nearly every apology can be taken as sincere or insincere, depending on how one WANTS to see it.

Forgive him or not, I thought Louis CKs apology was great. But to some, it had a million holes in it.

Whatever...

In regards to CK, it was a well written apology. He owned his actions and apologize to those he hurt.

I think his issue was that he said he was gonna step back and take some time and then 6 months later he's back in the clubs. And rather than reflect on it in his self deprecating way, he avoids it as if it never happened. There seemingly was no follow through. Granted, he may keep all that private, as is his right. You hope that he's made strides to improve as well as amends. but there was no public showing outside of the statement.

But you're right. For some people it will never be enough. And thats OK too. People can be done with him. He squandered basic trust that we choose to put on others. There are lines that are not Ok to cross, he did and his error is egregious, even though he apologized. You don't deserve redemption. You have to earn it and depending on what someone has done, they still may not deserve it.

[CherryRedVinyl]

Originally Posted by Dan33185

I'd be shocked if he didn't fire her instead, after that public post of a private conversation.

i hate to be cynical and i recognize that calling an apology into question comes at the risk of seeming cold-hearted. there’s also the risk of being naive and easily manipulated. i suppose the people who are more likely to question whether ryan’s words are truly heart-felt and sincere and not written with the intent to regain industry standing and sympathy-responses from fans, are the ones who may have had similar experiences with ryan or people in their own life who have repeatedly offered similarly-natured statements after behaving in outlandishly inconsiderate, nasty, selfish, or manipulative ways, and then followed their touching apologies by repeating the same kinds of behaviors. i can’t say what ryan’s manager did was within the boundaries of professionalism, but i can identify her frustration and possibly sympathize with the toll taken on her own mental health and sense of well-being if she’s had to handle these sorts of patterns over prolonged periods. dealing intimately with a narcissist over time can really have profound effects on ones psyche, to the extent that people are now doing phd level work trying to sort out it all out. the icing on the cake comes when the person who has been deliberately destructive or engaged in mean-spirited behaviors, accuses those who attempt to address the issue (with the intention of putting a stop to it) of victimizing *them*, or having unreasonable standards. i don’t condone ryan’s manager’s social media antic, but i don’t envy the impossible position she’s in, either.