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Ryan Adams, abuse, the Stans, and people who believe no apology is good enough


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Old 07-21-2019, 12:28 PM   #3176
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

To be clear, I don't believe Ryan to be on the same level as CK.

That being said, Ryan has had this pattern of behavior for decades now. We got glimpses of it in the press (though the odd interview questions with parties involved) when relationships failed, but we as fans took a brunt of it while being fans. Rob got it from him on several occasions. Fans at half played shows got it from him. He put it out on messageboards, Tumblrs, blogs. Hell we even got it from him just before this all dropped when he lorded a US tour over EU ticket sales. He a narcissist and good at manipulating people. Many women, including his ex-wife called him out on it. These threads have been there.

And all hes done to make amends is disappear from social media for 4 months, release statement that is about his suffering, but tags "believe women", yet doesn't acknowledge any damage hes caused (even if it was inadvertent)*.

Its a limp apology and it strikes me as hollow (see my *). And yes, I'm a dude who won't be going back, so maybe it invalidates my point a little, but the people he's hurt deserve more. And if he wants fans back, he needs to do more.





* to say nothing of the fact that we know a manager/handler tried to get him to work on shit and he flat out refused to do anything.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:55 PM   #3177
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
In regards to CK, it was a well written apology. He owned his actions and apologize to those he hurt.

I think his issue was that he said he was gonna step back and take some time and then 6 months later he's back in the clubs. And rather than reflect on it in his self deprecating way, he avoids it as if it never happened. There seemingly was no follow through. Granted, he may keep all that private, as is his right. You hope that he's made strides to improve as well as amends. but there was no public showing outside of the statement.

But you're right. For some people it will never be enough. And thats OK too. People can be done with him. He squandered basic trust that we choose to put on others. There are lines that are not Ok to cross, he did and his error is egregious, even though he apologized. You don't deserve redemption. You have to earn it and depending on what someone has done, they still may not deserve it.
I donít think CK was back at clubs 6 months later. It was about a year.

But youíve proven my point.

Louis did take a step back. But for some, that Ďstep backí will never be long enough.

And, Louis can write a heartfelt apology, but for some (like you), he apparently still needs to talk about it more and more. Heck, he even needs to address it when heís working out a new set!

And lastly, when it comes to Ryan, heís allowed to apologize, but also allowed to raise his hand and say, ďwait a minute. My ex wife had her say about our relationship, and Iím allowed to have my say....Ē
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:03 PM   #3178
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
To be clear, I don't believe Ryan to be on the same level as CK.

That being said, Ryan has had this pattern of behavior for decades now. We got glimpses of it in the press (though the odd interview questions with parties involved) when relationships failed, but we as fans took a brunt of it while being fans. Rob got it from him on several occasions. Fans at half played shows got it from him. He put it out on messageboards, Tumblrs, blogs. Hell we even got it from him just before this all dropped when he lorded a US tour over EU ticket sales. He a narcissist and good at manipulating people. Many women, including his ex-wife called him out on it. These threads have been there.

And all hes done to make amends is disappear from social media for 4 months, release statement that is about his suffering, but tags "believe women", yet doesn't acknowledge any damage hes caused (even if it was inadvertent)*.

Its a limp apology and it strikes me as hollow (see my *). And yes, I'm a dude who won't be going back, so maybe it invalidates my point a little, but the people he's hurt deserve more. And if he wants fans back, he needs to do more.





* to say nothing of the fact that we know a manager/handler tried to get him to work on shit and he flat out refused to do anything.

The ppl who heís hurt deserve more. Like what? Away from social media for one year?

Then ppl like you will say, ďhe hasnít spoken about it in a year.



My point is there are ppl willing to forgive and ppl who arenít.

But the problem with the ppl who arenít willing to forgive, is that they falsely imply they are willing to forgive, but the artist just hasnít apologized or shown heís sorry Ďenough.í

Case in point: you

You havenít maintained this thread of an artist you no longer like for 5 months because youíre waiting to hear the Ďrightí apology..
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:20 PM   #3179
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

Correct. I'm still here because I like posting here and we seem to inundated with people who think all of this is NBD and I'm just trying to do my part as a longtime poster here to change minds.

And you are also right, we may never know if he reaches out to these women (if they want to talk to him) to correct hs wrongs. So how will the public ever truly know if he is sorry or to what ends he has gone to make this right. I do find your invented example silly though because 1. It hasn't been a year, its been 4-5 months 2. we know as of a few weeks ago he had no interest in making amends)


Also to be clear, Ryan can go all out and do the greatest apology ever and I still won't go back to being a fan. That ship has sailed. but what I want is to see him make amends for his fuck up.
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:23 PM   #3180
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

I don't put much stock in apologies because the actions are more telling. When Ryan says "believe women" while outright saying they're lying and making himself out to be the victim, and there being multiple indications that he thinks this is all nonsense, it's clear he doesn't get why he's in the situation he's in. If he had shown any sort of growth as a human being from this, I'd probably feel better about supporting him again. Right now, it still feels lousy. Seeing him on social media actually irritated me, and I don't get the enjoyment from the music that I used to.

As for separating the art from the artist, I did that for the longest time. It wasn't a secret that he's a bit of a douchebag. It was easier to digest when he just seemed to be an asshole to fans and bandmates. Sexting minors, harassing and forcing himself on women is a whole different ballgame. And given that he's able to do these things in part because of the power he holds, I don't have much interest in contributing to that as a fan.
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:07 PM   #3181
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
Correct. I'm still here because I like posting here and we seem to inundated with people who think all of this is NBD and I'm just trying to do my part as a longtime poster here to change minds.

And you are also right, we may never know if he reaches out to these women (if they want to talk to him) to correct hs wrongs. So how will the public ever truly know if he is sorry or to what ends he has gone to make this right. I do find your invented example silly though because 1. It hasn't been a year, its been 4-5 months 2. we know as of a few weeks ago he had no interest in making amends)


Also to be clear, Ryan can go all out and do the greatest apology ever and I still won't go back to being a fan. That ship has sailed. but what I want is to see him make amends for his fuck up.

So, in your opinion, reaching out to these women is 'enough' for an apology and for your forgiveness? Exactly...

You're creating these scenarios about what will be 'enough' for your forgiveness or that Ryan has 'proved' to you he's sorry. But with you and others, it will never be enough.

As far as it 'being a year', I was referring to Louie CK.


And with Louie CK, you proved me right. Apparently LCK didn't do enough, right? Because to you and others, he never can.

And when LCK is trying out new material in the way he always does, ppl like you (who don't want him to come back at all) take his working set out of context as if he's become some alt-right comic...

Same with you and DRA. It's cool if you don't like him anymore, but it's obvious he will never do enough for you. Heck, even with these allegations, you try to lump in the times when he was a dick on social media....as if those two are related...
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:23 PM   #3182
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

You’re making a lot of assumptions there, but I don’t know what to tell you. I guess I’d rather error on the side of wishing people would try harder to be sorry (or just be more sorry) to the people they hurt, rather than just looking for the quick solution to justify why I can be a fan again.

Last edited by Tim Simmons; 07-21-2019 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:28 PM   #3183
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

Also to clarify, I lump his dickishness to his bands, or fans, to show the thread of behavior (or narcissism) that connects the two. Fans and band members weren’t partners and what he did is different, but the bad behaviors were always there.
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:43 PM   #3184
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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You making a lot of assumptions there, but I donít know what to tell you. I guess i error on the side of wishing people would try harder to be sorry (or just be more sorry) to the people they hurt, rather than just looking for the quick solution to justify why I can be a fan again.
Sure, some assumptions. But my thoughts on the LCK example are mostly from your words. He delivered a heartfelt apology, disappeared for a year. But to you....it just wasn't enough. He needed to say more in that year...

And with DRA, you obviously don't think this apology is good enough. You think he needs to publicly reach out to Mandy and have a public apology, etc? You think that wouldn't look calculating? You really think Moore wants that? Or Phoebe? Or Natalie? But that's what YOU need to feel like DRA is REALLY sorry, right?

In fact, let's also look at that DRA apology and pick it apart. Let's underline all the ways DRA 'made it about him' and conclude that "he hasn't learned a thing!!!"

We both agree that LCK had a good apology, right? People still picked that apart too because he spent a few sentences talking about his cast/crew that will be affected by his shortcomings...

Or, back to DRA, let's look at other fans who liked the apology and chalk them up as ppl who are "trying to find a quick solution to be a fan again!!!" That's an assumption too Simmons, no?


My point is to former fans and ppl that now despise DRA, LCK, and others, their sincere actions will never be enough. And any sort of whiff of a 'comeback' will be strongly opposed, no matter how much the artist tried to say they're sorry...
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:58 PM   #3185
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Also to clarify, I lump his dickishness to his bands, or fans, to show the thread of behavior (or narcissism) that connects the two. Fans and band members werenít partners and what he did is different, but the bad behaviors were always there.
But being a dick isn't a crime. That is not why his tour and record were cancelled.


So let's get this straight...

You obviously don't like DRA for the stuff we found out about in February. AND, you also see him now as a narcissist who has displayed bad behavior for about twenty years, right?


But, to you, if DRA reaches out to Mandy and others he hurt, that will lead you to believe that he's not only REALLY SORRY, but he has also grown from that 'bad' behavior he's displayed the last two decades?


Yeah...you sound like a guy who could totally accept DRA's apology....
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:07 PM   #3186
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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But being a dick isn't a crime. That is not why his tour and record were cancelled.


So let's get this straight...

You obviously don't like DRA for the stuff we found out about in February. AND, you also see him now as a narcissist who has displayed bad behavior for about twenty years, right?


But, to you, if DRA reaches out to Mandy and others he hurt, that will lead you to believe that he's not only REALLY SORRY, but he has also grown from that 'bad' behavior he's displayed the last two decades?


Yeah...you sound like a guy who could totally accept DRA's apology....
And you just sound cynical. Of course thats what I want. AND, I don't think its an unreasonable expectation either.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:12 PM   #3187
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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And you just sound cynical. Of course thats what I want.
Nope.

Have you entertained the idea that DRA might actually be sorry?

Nope.

To you, he hasn't done enough.

Just like with LCK. He didn't 'show you' he was sorry enough during his year of seclusion.


Come on Simmons. You're anchored in your opinion. No apology will be enough for you (or others).
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:16 PM   #3188
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

Also, at the end of the day, if I hold people to higher standards of making amends for because of physical or mental abuse and the bad drivers of that behavior, and am seen as unreasonable, I can live with that. I may be disappointed more often than not, but that’s for me to deal with.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:18 PM   #3189
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Nope.

Have you entertained the idea that DRA might actually be sorry?

Nope.

To you, he hasn't done enough.

Just like with LCK. He didn't 'show you' he was sorry enough during his year of seclusion.


Come on Simmons. You're anchored in your opinion. No apology will be enough for you (or others).

Man, you know me really well.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:25 PM   #3190
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
Also, at the end of the day, if I hold people to higher standards of making amends for because of physical or mental abuse and the bad drivers of that behavior, and am seen as unreasonable, I can live with that. I may be disappointed more often than not, but thatís for me to deal with.

Fact is, those who you judge apologies (DRA and LCK) will never meet your 'standards'. Their apologies, how long they waited, who they talked to, who forgave them will always fall short for you and others.

I'm sure this apology by DRA was not a 'step in the right direction' for you, right? He needed to wait longer. He needed to send Mandy more a nice public letter, etc...


But it's win-win for you. Because when those don't meet your 'standards', you can sit back and smugly talk about how how an apology fell short from your 'standards...'
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:28 PM   #3191
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

OK
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:29 PM   #3192
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

It’s win win for me because I don’t abuse women and look down on dudes who do.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:30 PM   #3193
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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OK

Now get back up on that high horse and tell us how LCK fell short of truly showing you he's sorry.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:31 PM   #3194
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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Itís win win for me because I donít abuse women and look down on dudes who do.

Wow, sounds like the person you're describing could really never say sorry enough....in your opinion.

So why pretend otherwise...
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:33 PM   #3195
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

You tell me. You’ve been real awesome at that today.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:41 PM   #3196
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

I guess I don’t understand why you care so much about his redemption arc. Or Louis for that matter. You either want to be a fan still or don’t. We all have different roads to forgiveness. Like everything in life. Why do you care so much about other people’s roads? If people want more from him in order to forgive, why is that bad?
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:45 PM   #3197
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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You tell me. Youíve been real awesome at that today.
Don't be so sensitive.

I'm just pointing you out for what you are.


DRA's apology will NEVER be enough for you and others. It will always fall short.

So why should your opinion on the matter hold any credibility?


There were people who took quotes from Louie CK's working set out of context to say he's anti-transgender, homophobic, etc. Those people had their minds made up on Louie before that set even leaked. They found the soundbites that helped their agenda. (That agenda? Louie's is unforgivable and shouldn't be allowed to comeback.)

Same with you and DRA.

Keep acting as if DRA can do something to make you really forgive him. There isn't. You know it.

But you're having a good time fighting 'the good fight!' for the last 5 months, so why stop now?
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:50 PM   #3198
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

I don’t have fun doing it. It’s pretty sad that I have to actually.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:51 PM   #3199
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

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I donít have fun doing it. Itís pretty sad that I have to actually.
Uh...yeah. Don't act like you're making some sacrifice or putting in 'work.'
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:56 PM   #3200
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Re: Ryan Adams, abuse, and the Stans that love them.

Ok
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