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Ryan Adams, abuse, the Stans, and people who believe no apology is good enough


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Old 02-16-2019, 11:27 PM   #951
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Originally Posted by graeliss View Post
"I'm sorry some people BELIEVE I've hurt them." That line insinuates that the reality of the victim is not the actual reality, which is classic emotionally abusive gaslighting behavior. It's also how people like Mandy Moore can stay in a relationship with someone like him for so long—a person causing you to doubt your own version of reality.
Definitely agree with your assessment of that last line. For someone so artful with phrasing at times, he really should've caught that immediately. The fact the he STILL has that up there is absurd to me. Even if he genuinely doesn't give a fuck, you'd think he'd at least act out of some last stab at self-preservation.

Complete digression, but I'm a little troubled by the proliferation of "gaslighting" as a point of criticism over the last five years or so. Obviously it happens, but I also think there's a fine line between "causing someone to doubt their version of reality" and "sharing your own perception of an event." As any psychologist will tell you, people experience things completely differently, including disagreements or events. People can argue their own perception of an event without it being an attempt to control. Obviously, it is ideal that people expertly articulate their own perspective while not discrediting someone else's, but that's also kind of unrealistic in more heated discussions. It's just a fine line, but I do feel like it's become a bit of a vogue term and, as a result, I hear more and more people throwing out that line whenever they have an issue with someone who interpreted an event or discussion differently than they have and attempts to communicate that.

In any event, what I'm trying to say is that I think that assessment should be reserved for repeated, objectively identifiable, strategic manipulation. Which, for the record, completely fits the bill where Ryan is concerned.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:15 AM   #952
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Please, Rob, don't shut down TBY until I get through this thread! I'm only on like page 12/39 (so far).
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:36 AM   #953
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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There'll be a lot of serious differences - racism, for one - and I think you're onto something about his accusers being public figures.
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How do you think racism plays into R Kelly being given a pass on heinous behaviour? Honest question; on the face of it I'd think racists would judge him more harshly.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:46 AM   #954
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Please, Rob, don't shut down TBY until I get through this thread! I'm only on like page 12/39 (so far).
Someone pdf it for posterity!
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:07 AM   #955
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Please, Rob, don't shut down TBY until I get through this thread! I'm only on like page 12/39 (so far).


Is TBY being shut down?


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Old 02-17-2019, 04:14 AM   #956
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

My favourite thing on the internet is people writing (lying) that they feel “sick to their stomach “, or “physically shaking with anger” or that they “ can’t breathe”.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:19 AM   #957
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Is TBY being shut down?


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I hope not, it’s a decent forum and I don’t see why his music shouldn’t be discussed just because he’s a dickhead.

I think we also need some perspective here, he is a sleazebag that deserves plenty of criticism but he’s not Michael Jackson FFS.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:08 AM   #958
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Honestly. I know Charlie left for his own studio shit but it did seem abrupt. Maybe not all of his friends and network stood by this kind of behavior.


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Seems plausible to me. The Shining also ended abruptly. I know there were seeming reasons for Viola / Daniel Clark to depart, i think Ryan said other jobs and marriage but it’d make sense at least as a factor if this type of thing was going on. That would’ve been around the time of Phoebe, 2015/2016.


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Old 02-17-2019, 05:15 AM   #959
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

i’m also sick of all the darn liars on the internet who say that their favorite artist’s patterns of emotional and sexual manipulation of women, including a minor, is causing them stress and sadness. Wish they would just realize he’s not Jerry Sandusky (pedophile) !!!!!!!!!


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Old 02-17-2019, 05:40 AM   #960
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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I hope not, it’s a decent forum and I don’t see why his music shouldn’t be discussed just because he’s a dickhead.

I think we also need some perspective here, he is a sleazebag that deserves plenty of criticism but he’s not Michael Jackson FFS.
What's wrong with Michael Jackson?
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:09 AM   #961
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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What's wrong with Michael Jackson?
He's an actual, real paedophile who interfered with prepubescent children.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:10 AM   #962
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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What's wrong with Michael Jackson?


He was a pedophile ...


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Old 02-17-2019, 06:51 AM   #963
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

In my opinion this whole debate is useless. I really can't see any difference here between him and any other "normal" person.
All those stories by those women are normal "bad relationship" stories.
And so i think this is all private stuff that should't be discussed in public.
Imagine all your exes team up against you in public and blaming you for all the bad things you did. And there are bad things in each and every relationship.
The main difference here seems to be that he is famous and has so called "powers", which he maybe would like to have, but actually doesn't.
There are only two possible ways those situations could occur.
1. Those women tried to boost their careers and would also accept having sex with someone influential. Then their main reason for beeing with him would be well calcualated.
Now in the end it didn't work out and now they are complaining about what? That their plan didn't work out? In this situatiomn they tried to abuse his "powers" to their advantage.
2. They wanted to be in a romatic relationship with him, which is way more likely, at least for most of them.
Then i don't see any difference between him and anyone else, because if they are attracted to him anyway his so called "powers" don't make any difference, and he used them like anyone else would use things to impress the girl you're attracted to.
Also as far as we know there was never any violence involved and every one of them could stop anything by themselves.

The next important topic here is that the whole story is transporting a very antiquated image of women and men. The woman as a weak helpless victim and the men as powerful controlling part.
This has nothing todo with modern emancipation. If you as a woman are as weak and helpless that a man can control and manipulate you in a bad way you need to change that behaviour and stand up for your self.
If you won't, there will definitely be the next one and it will happen in all or most of your relationships.
Not that this justifies bad controlling behaviour but it really won't help those women if we make them victims and they will most likely end up in the same situation again with someone else.

What i really don't like is the hipocrisy in the whole discussions here. As if most of us would be saints and never would do anything weird bad etc.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people complaining the most are the ones with skeletons in the closet.
Yes he seems to have a favour for young girls but i don't really want to know what weird sexual stuff etc. is going on behind the facade of the people here in the forum.
And btw you voted for a president that we all know is not the nicest guy when it comes to women ("grabe em by the p****").

Regarding the undreage thing we just have to wait for the result of the FBI investigation. We don't know anything about it except a few quotes out of context.
As long as we don't know more about it, we don't have the right to judge.
Imagine we are destroying his life, his career, his reputation etc. and in the end they figure out that he didn't know about her beeing underage.
And that actually is the key to decide if it was a bad thing or it wasn't, because in general there is nothing wrong with having phone sex with adult girls. If you don want to you can always close your device.
I would really like to see everyone waiting for evidence before judging. You are destroying the life of someone without having any evidence, that is a really bad behaviour as well.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:08 AM   #964
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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Originally Posted by loveisreal View Post
In my opinion this whole debate is useless. I really can't see any difference here between him and any other "normal" person.
All those stories by those women are normal "bad relationship" stories.
And so i think this is all private stuff that should't be discussed in public.
Imagine all your exes team up against you in public and blaming you for all the bad things you did. And there are bad things in each and every relationship.
The main difference here seems to be that he is famous and has so called "powers", which he maybe would like to have, but actually doesn't.
There are only two possible ways those situations could occur.
1. Those women tried to boost their careers and would also accept having sex with someone influential. Then their main reason for beeing with him would be well calcualated.
Now in the end it didn't work out and now they are complaining about what? That their plan didn't work out? In this situatiomn they tried to abuse his "powers" to their advantage.
2. They wanted to be in a romatic relationship with him, which is way more likely, at least for most of them.
Then i don't see any difference between him and anyone else, because if they are attracted to him anyway his so called "powers" don't make any difference, and he used them like anyone else would use things to impress the girl you're attracted to.
Also as far as we know there was never any violence involved and every one of them could stop anything by themselves.

The next important topic here is that the whole story is transporting a very antiquated image of women and men. The woman as a weak helpless victim and the men as powerful controlling part.
This has nothing todo with modern emancipation. If you as a woman are as weak and helpless that a man can control and manipulate you in a bad way you need to change that behaviour and stand up for your self.
If you won't, there will definitely be the next one and it will happen in all or most of your relationships.
Not that this justifies bad controlling behaviour but it really won't help those women if we make them victims and they will most likely end up in the same situation again with someone else.

What i really don't like is the hipocrisy in the whole discussions here. As if most of us would be saints and never would do anything weird bad etc.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people complaining the most are the ones with skeletons in the closet.
Yes he seems to have a favour for young girls but i don't really want to know what weird sexual stuff etc. is going on behind the facade of the people here in the forum.
And btw you voted for a president that we all know is not the nicest guy when it comes to women ("grabe em by the p****").

Regarding the undreage thing we just have to wait for the result of the FBI investigation. We don't know anything about it except a few quotes out of context.
As long as we don't know more about it, we don't have the right to judge.
Imagine we are destroying his life, his career, his reputation etc. and in the end they figure out that he didn't know about her beeing underage.
And that actually is the key to decide if it was a bad thing or it wasn't, because in general there is nothing wrong with having phone sex with adult girls. If you don want to you can always close your device.
I would really like to see everyone waiting for evidence before judging. You are destroying the life of someone without having any evidence, that is a really bad behaviour as well.


I want to add that I was “abused by power “ in a work context once. And one of these girls worked closely with one of my abuser’s big boss. I tried to contact her and there was no response and now I see her on MM’s side ... so she didn’t really care about abuse but about making a name for herself in the industry. The abuse existed only when she was the victim.

And it’s true that we need to stop infantilising women. As a woman We know when we are in a position of power abuse and for what I understand they could’ve stoped it if they really wanted.

And regarding the “minor” I bet he suspected but she lied about that and continue the “relationship” even sending pictures, so she wanted it. I bet she knew what she was doing at 16.


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Old 02-17-2019, 07:32 AM   #965
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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My favourite thing on the internet is people writing (lying) that they feel “sick to their stomach “, or “physically shaking with anger” or that they “ can’t breathe”.
Good for you.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:47 AM   #966
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Don't infantilise the women, sure. How about we don't infantilise Ryan, either. Nobody made him behave how he did. He's a grown man, decades older and experienced than many of these women. Which is to say, many of them are of an age to be his infants.

Fucked up worldview where not leaving an abusive situation fast enough makes one more accountable than the person creating the abusive situation.

Here's Ryan talking about Leah Hayes, back in 2008:

I'm sure you know those songs, but maybe take a moment to think back on them, think back on the feelings conveyed, what situations you might have supposed from them.

Now look at Leah Hayes on Ryan:

Quote:
He appeared out of nowhere at one of my shows, told me he was a fan of my comics and music, and asked me to design his next record cover. I was flattered, and then nearly everything was consumed with either fighting him off sexually and/or being told that he would produce my music and take me on tour with him. He bought me extravagant gifts and begged me for sleepovers at his house, despite the fact that I had a boyfriend at the time. He wanted to see me every day, and texted me hundreds, if not thousands of times over the year. I spent day after day in his apartment in New York, under the pretense that I would be “working on art”, while he tried to get me to watch movies in bed. He, at one point, pushed my face into his crotch and told me to give him a blow job. That was near the end. I essentially had to “flee” the situation (ran out of his house, stopped returning his calls, maybe changed my number?? I don’t remember), but I do remember being on a bus back to my hometown, Ryan screaming at me on the phone to break up with my boyfriend and come back to his house.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

I understand the grief here, the need to make things alright, to go back to before last wednesday. But we can't. One way or another, the individual listener - fan - needs to account for what we now know.

Some separate the art from the artist. Others can't do that, but can't let go of the art either, and so try and grey-area and 'yeah, but' and 'what about' their way around it (it's why they're more angry at those who spoke out about Ryan's behaviour than at his actual behaviour). Others, myself included, cannot do that. It's a horrible situation.

If you have to say 'it's not that bad', 1) it's still bad and 2) it probably is that bad. I wish it wasn't. I don't say or take any of this lightly. I don't have the love for his music I once did, but I still listened to him, and there was a near decade where, musically, it meant almost everything to me. There's a big, important part of my life tied up with his music. And I don't know what to do about that.

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Old 02-17-2019, 07:58 AM   #967
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

No one said that his behaviour is OK. It is just none of our business. Instead it is a private thing between them and they need to sort this out themselves. Discussing this in public does not make any sense.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:10 AM   #968
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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No one said that his behaviour is OK. It is just none of our business. Instead it is a private thing between them and they need to sort this out themselves. Discussing this in public does not make any sense.
I don't follow him on Twitter, but I've had a look back over his history and he seems to share things that could have remained private, he's also commented on things that were not his business to say (frightened rabbit, etc). But he does these things and makes no excuses. I think it's good to see him being at the wrong end of this, if nothing else.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:11 AM   #969
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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No one said that his behaviour is OK. It is just none of our business. Instead it is a private thing between them and they need to sort this out themselves. Discussing this in public does not make any sense.
Maybe not that it's ok, but that it's 'normal', or that 'we knew what he was like' (well, I didn't, at least). Throw that in with the scrutiny given to those he treated like shit, and it's not a good look.

And I disagree that it's none of our business. Ryan's whole thing is that his relationship difficulties are very much our business. If you have no problem with his behaviour, or can separate the art from the artist, well, bully for you. A lot of fans can't do that, and so need to work through their reactions to the news.

ETA: Further, his behaviour toward the 14 year old is not an anomaly or outlier. It's the extreme end of the continuum of his actions and attitude towards women, and his self-regard. That is why the stuff you describe as 'private' or 'bad relationships' is our business.

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Old 02-17-2019, 08:17 AM   #970
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

At least Ryan made it on SNL

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Old 02-17-2019, 08:20 AM   #971
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

I'm a woman, I've already mentioned my bipolar and bpd issues, and I've for example:

- Had an ex who I was shitty and even abusive to who conveniently forgot to tell people he was shitty and abusive himself when he told everyone how abusive I was.

- Had a woman smear my name by telling everyone a lie about something I didn't do, and they believed it because of previously "bad" behavior (lashing out, etc)

- Had a guy I knew for like a month claim the next morning after first time sex, at breakfast, that he felt pressured and like he HAD to have sex. It did not go down like that. This sure messed with my head.

So yeah, these are just personal anecdotes, but you all will just have to excuse me for erring on the side of not bringing out the pitchfork for a bit.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:26 AM   #972
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

Can anyone tell what Phoebe Bridgers is saying Ryan did to her?
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:39 AM   #973
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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I don't follow him on Twitter, but I've had a look back over his history and he seems to share things that could have remained private, he's also commented on things that were not his business to say (frightened rabbit, etc). But he does these things and makes no excuses. I think it's good to see him being at the wrong end of this, if nothing else.
Just because he put private things into public does not justify you doing it.
Or in other words one wrong action does not justify another wrong action.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:45 AM   #974
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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And I disagree that it's none of our business. Ryan's whole thing is that his relationship difficulties are very much our business.
That actually does not make sense at all. It's like saying it makes sense because it makes sense.

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ETA: Further, his behaviour toward the 14 year old is not an anomaly or outlier. It's the extreme end of the continuum of his actions and attitude towards women, and his self-regard. That is why the stuff you describe as 'private' or 'bad relationships' is our business.
No one justified that. It is just too early to judge.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:57 AM   #975
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv: The Thread

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That actually does not make sense at all. It's like saying it makes sense because it makes sense.
Ryan Adams makes a living giving his side of his relationship difficulties, sharing his lovelorn woes (never mind his carrying on on social media). He has, as artists do, connected with listeners and found an audience through the trust given him. Now the other side is coming out, way different from how he was pitching it, and suddenly its none of our business? I cannot agree with that.

This isn't he said/she said. Go back to what I was saying about the situation with Leah Hayes.


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No one justified that. It is just too early to judge.
Some have, in applauding response to what you said:

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And regarding the “minor” I bet he suspected but she lied about that and continue the “relationship” even sending pictures, so she wanted it. I bet she knew what she was doing at 16.
And it's not too early to judge. What the fuck is a 40 year old man doing talking to someone he worries might be underage? You can be cool with that all you want, but I'll not be side-eyed for thinking it's gross and fucked up.
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