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Ryan Adams, abuse, the Stans, and people who believe no apology is good enough


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Old 02-13-2019, 08:40 PM   #176
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

Original link from NYT is down...
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:40 PM   #177
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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I think there's a difference between saying something nasty in the heat of a moment and an actual pattern of abuse. If it were Ryan just saying "you're not a musician" one time, whatever. But it's pretty clearly part of something larger and systemic. There is the difference, and the problem. And I say that as no fan of Mandy Moore.
True enough. I don't quite buy the article's version of the "pattern of abuse", because in my judgment (just me) everything presented has the air of having been carefully curated to support that thesis and that thesis alone. Is he a selfish asshole who has manipulated people for his own gain? Almost certainly. When you say "larger and systemic", I could not agree more, but I mean way beyond whether Ryan Adams needs to be shunned from public life. If #MeToo #TimesUp journalism wants to have serious discussions about identifying abuses of power, how existing structures uphold them, and how to work to prevent them on a societal level, I'm all for that. All this strain of gotcha exposes are interested in is singling out individuals who apparently meet some threshold of "abuser" and separating them from...the rest of us?

I'm not comfortable with that framing, and I'm not a person hiding abusive skeletons in my closet or who anyone would describe as a jerk toward women.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:42 PM   #178
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Original link from NYT is down...
think thats just a bad link

its still up - try this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/a...women-sex.html
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:42 PM   #179
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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In the case of Mandy alone, what we're analyzing here are the relationship dynamics of two people in a long term romantic relationships. We're not talking about black and white behaviors, like physical abuse. We're discussing emotional and psychological trends that played out between two people over almost a decade together.

It's really unfair to analyze those things in absolutes, particularly from only one side. What you're describing may have been systemic. I'd bet there were a number of other systemic issues occurring within the relationship that have not been brought to light and that they changed and evolved over time, as things will in relationships. There are certain things that are just absolute deal breakers and don't require context, and I think we know what they are. But to hear one person's side of what happened emotionally within a relationship and assume that this constitutes anything resembling a comprehensive account of explanation of the dynamics is really unfair. That shit is way, way, way, way too textured for that.

Again, Mandy's case along. Other things in the story are completely different stories. Kind of lame that we're even debating shit about Mandy when there are much bigger fish to fry. Which is the source of my annoyance with this being included in the first place.
Of course we don't know the full story and of course there are other sides. But if one party is continually demeaning and trying to stifle the other, that is systematic and a problem. It doesn't mean that things were static or the other person was without fault, it just means that there is a continuing problem. Mandy could've been a giant asshole with an anger problem, which is what Ryan has claimed in the past, but he can still display a pattern of abuse within whatever dynamic Mandy contributes. It just seems very obvious that there was something larger than a "fuck you" during an argument.

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really? one article and we just jump to conclusions?
This is just the most ignorant of viewpoints.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:42 PM   #180
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

I never saw Ryan as a powerful puppetmaster of the music industry. The NYT article lacks a significant amount of evidence and context. The authors do a good job of making all the women seem fragile and helpless and Ryan as a predator. I would urge everyone to not take all this at face value and ask some questions of the implications being made and the evidence provided.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:44 PM   #181
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Original link from NYT is down...
Try this one....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/a...women-sex.html
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:44 PM   #182
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Original link from NYT is down...
That's weird, the link is broken but it's still on the NYTimes front page. Right under Manafort lied to prosecutors.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:49 PM   #183
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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True enough. I don't quite buy the article's version of the "pattern of abuse", because in my judgment (just me) everything presented has the air of having been carefully curated to support that thesis and that thesis alone. Is he a selfish asshole who has manipulated people for his own gain? Almost certainly. When you say "larger and systemic", I could not agree more, but I mean way beyond whether Ryan Adams needs to be shunned from public life. If #MeToo #TimesUp journalism wants to have serious discussions about identifying abuses of power, how existing structures uphold them, and how to work to prevent them on a societal level, I'm all for that. All this strain of gotcha exposes are interested in is singling out individuals who apparently meet some threshold of "abuser" and separating them from...the rest of us?

I'm not comfortable with that framing, and I'm not a person hiding abusive skeletons in my closet or who anyone would describe as a jerk toward women.
Sure, our view of the matter is molded entirely by what the participants offer us, and it doesn't offer any solutions to what the totality of the issue is. And Ryan for his part never helps that beyond giving a politician's "I do not recall". But for whatever exists outside the narrative provided, it seems pretty obvious that there's at least a considerable amount of truth. Unless the context of those texts to the minor was, "Let's say whatever absurd thing comes to mind", there's really nothing that's going to make me feel better about him saying he wants to touch her nipple, that he's like R Kelly, and he hopes her mom doesn't find out.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:49 PM   #184
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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I never saw Ryan as a powerful puppetmaster of the music industry. The NYT article lacks a significant amount of evidence and context. The authors do a good job of making all the women seem fragile and helpless and Ryan as a predator. I would urge everyone to not take all this at face value and ask some questions of the implications being made and the evidence provided.
I'll also add this is the fucking New York Times we're talking about here folks. If u simply blindly trust their publication without demanding any kind of evidence whatsoever then I've got some land in the Everglades I'd love to sell you.

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Old 02-13-2019, 08:50 PM   #185
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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I never saw Ryan as a powerful puppetmaster of the music industry. The NYT article lacks a significant amount of evidence and context. The authors do a good job of making all the women seem fragile and helpless and Ryan as a predator. I would urge everyone to not take all this at face value and ask some questions of the implications being made and the evidence provided.
This is one part of these pieces which is really infuriating regardless of who it's happening to or what the story is.

They treat Phoebe Bridgers, (who was ONLY twenty years old) as this naive child who was incapable of making determinations about a person's motives or assessing someone's viability as a romantic partner. Not only would the same standard of age/ignorance not apply to a man (as we have seen in countless situations), but it suggests that women are these completely naive, helpless beings who just float around waiting to exploited. Not true and not fair to anyone.

I'm going to guess Phoebe Bridgers is pretty goddamned intelligent and was likely smarter at 20 than most people I know are in their thirties. The fact that we can't sort of admit that she, herself, made an autonomous and stupid choice by getting romantically involved with a known womanizer and lunatic does a disservice to everything these movements are supposed to be establishing about gender. Does that mean that Ryan's behavior was acceptable? No. But there is a distinction that needs to be made between acting like a jerk towards someone who is capable of deciding to take your shitty behavior as a romantic partner and acting like a jerk toward someone over whom you hold established power in terms of age or knowledge. Which, I guess, is why this article's pairing of accounts seems somewhat out of whack and incongruous.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:55 PM   #186
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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really? one article and we just jump to conclusions?
this just seems to be the norm of the day. i'm not trying to stick up for the guy but one fucking article filled with past jaded lovers?
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:56 PM   #187
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

Everyone is overlooking the Skype sexting a minor thing - they have all the messages, and that's all anyone should need to know at this point.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:57 PM   #188
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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really? one article and we just jump to conclusions?
This is just the most ignorant of viewpoints.


please explain.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:58 PM   #189
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Everyone is overlooking the Skype sexting a minor thing - they have all the messages, and that's all anyone should need to know at this point.
I don't deny they exist but I want them to prove they exist so they need to show me. We need to start demanding more from our media these days. I'm simply not going to 'trust' someone just because they happen to work at some 'respected' corporate media establishment.

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Old 02-13-2019, 08:59 PM   #190
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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can you shed some more light on this? was completely unaware this had taken place
he used to send questionable messages/replies to girls that appeared “around 18”...i remember those days pretty well.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:00 PM   #191
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Everyone is overlooking the Skype sexting a minor thing - they have all the messages, and that's all anyone should need to know at this point.
no, that’s not all i need to know at this point, not even close.

proof of these messages and their content please. them telling me they have them and that they are bad is not nearly enough for me to believe them. why the fuck should i believe anyone in this day and age, given the horseshit political and journalism state of affairs?
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:00 PM   #192
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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he used to send questionable messages/replies to girls that appeared “around 18”...i remember those days pretty well.
was this on myspace or facebook?
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:00 PM   #193
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Does that mean that Ryan's behavior was acceptable? No. But there is a distinction that needs to be made between acting like a jerk towards someone who is capable of deciding to take your shitty behavior as a romantic partner and acting like a jerk toward someone over whom you hold established power in terms of age or knowledge. Which, I guess, is why this article's pairing of accounts seems somewhat out of whack and incongruous.

I don't disagree with this. That he treated his girlfriends like shit and was manipulative and bullying, doesn't surprise me. He seemed to treat most people that way, sooner or later. The allegations about the 14 year old are on a whole different level.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #194
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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no, that’s not all i need to know at this point, not even close.

proof of these messages and their content please. them telling me they have them and that they are bad is not nearly enough for me to believe them. why the fuck should i believe anyone in this day and age, given the horseshit political and journalism state of affairs?
I agree with you and I'd like to see those messages released, as well.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:05 PM   #195
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Everyone is overlooking the Skype sexting a minor thing - they have all the messages, and that's all anyone should need to know at this point.
Had they had skype sex before? Was she fully engaged in this romance? How did she skate around her age with him? It seems, based on the limited info from the article, she never told him her age. Did she provide copies of the texts and were they full copies without anything being deleted?

A lot of unanswered questions.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:06 PM   #196
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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I don't disagree with this. That he treated his girlfriends like shit and was manipulative and bullying, doesn't surprise me. He seemed to treat most people that way, sooner or later. The allegations about the 14 year old are on a whole different level.
exactly. but it's speculative. this is one source and everyone is quick to blame.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:07 PM   #197
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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please explain.
Because it's not "just one article". If you haven't seen him exhibit this behavior online at some point over the past 10+ years, I don't know what to tell you. Literally the last time he and Megan Buttersworth broke up, he tried to get his followers to harass her. This isn't new behavior, it's been on display for a long time. And it's not one source, it's seven sources within one article with ample documentation provided.
And as for the minor, they have a ton of text messages. They directly quoted him, and it's hardly stuff that could be twisted to make him sound awful. He called himself R. Kelly and said he didn't want her mom to find out. How is that not a giant red flag? How is that just jumping to conclusions?
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:07 PM   #198
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

Another thing we should really acknowledge here is that Ryan Adams is mentally ill. There's no question in my mind that he has a significant mental illness of some kind, whether it's bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, or any number of other things.

Entering into a relationship with this type of person is a different type of commitment and will carry with it different problems. As someone who deals with a lot of mental health issues and reads a lot about people who attempt relationships while dealing with such conditions, there are completely different needs in terms of tolerance, patience, and understanding from partners.

That doesn't absolve Ryan of his behavior and, if he wasn't trying to actively monitor and change, then he's completely in the wrong. BUT, Ryan's reputation was known to everyone in music for years. When you willfully enter a relationship with a mentally ill person, you are signing up to date a mentally ill person, not to pretend to date a normal person. It's very important that you know your own boundaries and get out if things get too intense (as both women did), but it's somewhat disingenuous to point out the very nature of someone whose nature was known beforehand.

The predatory shit with a 14 year old is a different level. He's preying on someone there. A 29 or 20 year old woman deciding they're willing to take on the challenge of dating someone with a mental illness should absolutely leave when it's too much, but they should not really turn around and act shocked that he acted like someone with a mental illness.

Get serious help, Ryan.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:08 PM   #199
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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Because it's not "just one article". If you haven't seen him exhibit this behavior online at some point over the past 10+ years, I don't know what to tell you. Literally the last time he and Megan Buttersworth broke up, he tried to get his followers to harass her. This isn't new behavior, it's been on display for a long time. And it's not one source, it's seven sources within one article with ample documentation provided.
And as for the minor, they have a ton of text messages. They directly quoted him, and it's hardly stuff that could be twisted to make him sound awful. He called himself R. Kelly and said he didn't want her mom to find out. How is that not a giant red flag? How is that just jumping to conclusions?
^^^^
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:09 PM   #200
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Re: Your favorite singer/songwriter is a Perv:The Thread

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was this on myspace or facebook?
he had a tumblr, which was a blog type site in the cardinology days.
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